verify your roofer's insurance

http://hudsonvalleyrooferandmore.blogspot.com/2012/04/verify-your-roofers-insurance.html

I carry twice the limits that most roofers carry. That said, it's none of your business what insurance I carry, nor is it my business what you carry.

And if you make it part of your sales pitch to scare the customer because joe blow doesn't carry the insurance you think he should have,, you're a crappy salesman.

Wywoody, My insurance will not cover apartments or condos. The reason is the many lawsuits. It seems that if something goes wrong everyone gets sued even the landscaper. I could get insurance but the cost would be prohibitive. Thus, I don't bid them. ---You have to be a big company who can handle those kind of premiums. And at the same time the bids on those buildings reflect the higher liability. ---I used to own a condo. The board was made up of idiots who were retired and didn't know a thing about construction. (sorry ladies but it seems like condos always elect grandma to the board because she has lots of time...) I tried to help them with some roofing problems and being an owner I thought they would appreciate my advice. The roofs were simple comp 4/12 townhouses. Brother was that a headache. ---One building had a 40 sq flat roof with 4 foot paraput walls. The management company sent out a hot shot big company salesman who tried to get them to replace the entire roof which was 2 years old. (roofed by the painter but that is another sad story of malfeasance by the board.) At the time he wanted 25k. I told them I could fix their problems for 3k. It took 3 hours to repair the problems and that solved their leaks to this day. ---I told them I never mind making 3k for 3 hours work but they were so hard to work for and so incompetant (I sent this in a letter to EVERY owner) that I had to charge that much for aggravation.

Lanny

IF you work by yourself and have no assets, insurance makes no sense. You have the right to contract, and if that contract says you shall get insurance, you MUST!

If you don't want to get insurance, just do your own thing and stay really small. don't make much and hide what you make. THAT is being a "roofer" If you want to make a lot of money and have people working for you, you are now a "roofing Contractor" and you have to play by those rules. No other way around it.

Lanny, about a dozen years ago, I was installing a roof for the owner of a large commercial roofing company. They're in your market, you probably know of them (black trucks, based in Tigard OR). He was telling me that their company just hit both $40 million in sales and $1 million in liability premiums. And that didn't include the vehicle, property etc insurance.

Sadly the old guy passed away since then, but in the succeeding legal morass of Washington state, I imagine that insurance for the big guys would be even higher today.

About 15 years ago, I got a big condo project. I normally didn't do that type of project, but the project manager had built about 5 big houses that I had roofed and had a working relationship with him, so I agreed to do it.

The first thing they built was the clubhouse and while doing it I knew the whole operation was a total joke. I knew I had to get out of the project. It turned out that the specs on my contract were different than the specs on the builders' contract and I made it my loophole to get out. 10 years later, the condo owners sue the builder. My insurance companies settle for 20k on the clubhouse roof even though no defects were found. But the roofer that did the rest of the project got hit for 800k.

I haven't done a roof for anyone I didn't already know and trust since then and am happy to be a mostly repair company now. Be careful out there.

---Natty, I might agree with you in principle but the world we live in is very contorted. We do not live in an ideal world. ---I have some very good friends who have been in business over 40 years who have a sterling reputation and are worth several million because of their successful roofing companies. They have also had to fend off nuisance lawsuits. They wouldn't dream of not having insurance which for them runs 20-30k/year. ---It does no good to live by an ideal that doesn't exist. You must live in the real world. ---And as things continue to go down hill in this country because of its bizarre monetary policy lawsuits will rise, rates for insurance will climb, corruption will rise, the gov't will become worse, rules & regs will rise and in general the producers will have a harder and harder time surviving the many laying claim to their assets. Insurance is a no brainer to me.

Lanny

natty, I'm impressed with the level of thought I'm seeing in your posts. I find myself mostly agreeing with them and mostly agreeing entirely. An exception in this one but maybe semantics is at play here. "Insurance has nothing to do with responsibility."

I'm pretty, how do they say nowadays, anal, about the work I do because I don't want problems, because I know that problems do occur through all kinds of little lapses, fatigue, etc., and because when I went into this business as a young man I realized that most people had a fairly low opinion of people in this trade and the quality of the work they do and I wanted to roll that back on them. Can't do that if you're not paying attention and in this business that means all the time. I couldn't afford insurance when I started, at least not for the first couple of years.

In the succeeding forty years I have been insured, though I could go on for hours about the relative quality of the insurance as what you call the financiers play around with it and us and each other. The reason why I tie it to responsibility is that no matter what I do or how carefully I do it, or how carefully I screen my clients, I now know that I will be sued approximately once approximately every two decades. It's cheaper for me to buy insurance than provide my customers and myself with the entire defense. Blame the legal profession for that if you like. The system is too expensive, too complicated, too technical, and too time-consuming for me to handle it entirely on my own counsel and out of my own pocket.

I will grant that having insurance increases the odds of being sued, but all things being equal, having no assets and no insurance is the only way I know of to avoid a suit nearly altogether. Residential, steep-slope, careful to a fault, probably nothing that can't be dealt with. But I believe that a catastrophic loss would reveal me to be irresponsible if I couldn't handle it with insurance or from my own pocket.

That doesn't mean it should be mandatory. It shouldn't. We should all be able to choose the level of risk we are comfortable with.

On the other hand, if a third party is legally or morally obliged to pick up the tab for damages arising from a transaction they did not enter into explicitly, it would be utterly understandable if that third party defended itself by requiring the first two parties to provide their own insurance just to hold them harmless. That would be the case with workers comp. A slightly different subject, but closely related.

We're all bound up right now with almost everyone afraid of his own shadow, and the little guy trying to come up with enough for just the basics gets led around by his nose most of the time. I try to keep my eye on the pendulum. I'm a little guy myself.

Old School Said: Insurance spreads that responsibility back onto those of us that are engaged in the trade, and it is a good thing.

And that is the pity. Hardly anyone works for themselves anymore. We have all fallen for the corporate crap that bigger is better and labor is just another commodity with a cost. Govt is there to further enrich the managers and throw labor a bone.

Insurance has nothing to do with responsibility. Insurance is supposed to spread the risk. Today it just pads the profits of the financiers.

As an individual I am responsible for my own health and life. Maybe insurance is a part of the puzzle in the event of a loss. But to force me into the same risk pool as everyone else and as if everyone operates the same way is just wrong.

Natty says, "If that were true, every state would require it just on pure logic." ---hmmm...You are assuming that gov't is logical...I find that impossible to believe. ---In fact, I think logic and gov't are opposite.

lanny

Natty, I understand your line of thinking, and I doubt if many of the guys hate the regulations more than I do,,,,but if someone that is working for you "Opts" out as you call it and then gets hurt and can't work, just who do you think is going to have to pay for them?

Common law says we accept responsibility for our actions, and we also have the right to contract as you say. When you have others working for you however, you are responsible and if everyone is not on the same page, we all get to pay the bill. Insurance spreads that responsibility back onto those of us that are engaged in the trade, and it is a good thing.

lanny Said: ---In my state licensing is a way of protecting the consumer and you.

Lanny

If that were true, every state would require it just on pure logic.

If the only requirement of licensing is to have insurance, then we have fallen into the trap of corporatism where no one is accountable for anything and the only object is profit.

Webmaster Steve Said: natty

If a roofer opts out of workerscomp and gets hurt on the job who pay for his recovery and medical bills?

Under the common law, the employee assumes the risk.

Worker's comp is a racket devised by financiers and in some states, mandated by numbnut social engineers. Legally, it protects the employer from suits brought by employees. Socially, it regenerates the slave-master relationship.

In a free society, people contract for goods and services. If they are smart, they charge enough to cover risks.

I have nothing against people purchasing insurance from the financiers who are betting they can collect more in premiums than they pay out for claims. I have everything against a society that forces its purchase.

We now have mandated Obamacare. What sense is there to buy insurance that only covers on the job claims? All Obamacare did was guarantee profits for the financiers.

Nice posts, lanny.

Just for the record, as a matter of disclosure, I carry WC and CGL with an "admitted" carrier, have a license and a license bond, bus. auto insurance with high limits, and a motor carrier of property permit. Just for the record. But I'm in a pretty tough state where a lot hangs on having this stuff. You can't operate inside the law without most of it.

Nevertheless I also have forty years experience watching all types of people game this stuff and have seen people from all quarters twisting things in ways they were never meant to be twisted. That's why I have a LOT of sympathy for what natty is saying.

When you get insurance companies and attorneys and "expert witnesses" and insouciant judges and weird juries and property owners with highly-questionable motives all involved together you no longer have a simple system. What you end up with is very abstract coverage debates and rackets which milk the last drop out of what should be a pretty straight-forward upstanding industry.

---I might also add this controversial note. As an owner I am responsible for my employee's mistakes. I am responsible or my company is responsible ( why I am incorporated) for everything that goes on. ---Larger companies have much larger exposure. Let's face it...roofers are not always on the ball. Drug use is high as is alcohol. Many roofers are transient and move from company to company. Some larger roof companies are always hiring. Which means they are always losing employees. Which often means they are hiring high risk people. High risk people mean high risk exposure to major problems, claims, etc. ---I have been around this business for over 40 years. And I've seen many idiots really mess things up. "Hey, where is the 24 foot aluminum plank?" "Duh, I don't know. It was on the truck when we left the shop for the job." Meaning it is out on the highway somewhere... " where did all that damage come from on the truck bed?" "Well, the truck wouldn't fit through the fast food drive lane." Meaning big damage to the fast food overhang.

I worked for a company that had 2 idiots that tore off the entire roof on a nice house and went home at 5 PM rather than stay another hour and dry in the house. It poured...Every ceiling had to be taken down and all sheet rock replaced to the tune of about $20k.

I could go on and on with major expensive bone head mistakes. I wouldn't dream of not having insurance in this business.

Lanny

---In my state licensing is a way of protecting the consumer and you. ---Anyone can get a license. Licensing does not require ANY roofing knowledge. There is no standard, no test, no training, no apprentice program, etc. ---Licensing is a way of requiring a contractor to take responsibility for what might happen. For example, in my state it is also a requirement to have car insurance. I must carry a small card in my car that details my insurance company and that I am current. If I am not insured or my insurance is expired, or I lost the card (proof of insurance) there is a fine of around $600. ---Auto insurance protects you in case of an accident. You may get sued but the insurance company will defend you or settle with the other party. That is also true of homeowner's insurance. It will cover you in case someone trips on your front porch and breaks their leg. It will even cover you if your dog bites the neighbor's kid. ---Contractor's insurance is definitely in everyone's best interest. Roofer's do make mistakes and the risks are high in my opinion. ---I worked for a company that had a lift truck up 2 stories with 5 tons of pea gravel that they were spreading on the new hot roof. The driveway was steep and the truck rolled off the blocks went through the power lines, crossed the street and fell over into the neighbor's house with the truck bed crashing through the picture window and wall dumping about 2 tons of gravel right on the living room rug. I could detail a dozen similiar stories where insurance was the difference between almost bankruptcy and surviving.

Lanny