State Licensing Shot Down Again!

California should only be used when you need an example of a bad example.

I simply can not understand why anyone that pays attention to how government works can be for more government. Doesnt matter what the topic is, large government is a bad thing that requires more taxes from you and I.

You've lost me....shoulda known better.... ;)

TomB Said: Calif. contr lic works....The sub-game is non-existant....Consumers have recourse...call the lic board...contr resolves problem or ceases to be in biz....No credit, cant pass a simple biz management & trade specific test = no lic....no lic. = no permits issued at bldg depts....Sure theres crooks....but nothing like the widespead crap that goes on in non-lic states.

Thats it....signing out....you can lead a horse to water.....

Declaring victory as you give up is one way... :P

California is broke, and hardly a model about how local and state government should be conducted.

California is also the most expensive place to live in the country. It is also the easiest state in the country to get public assistance. Pretty soon it all implodes.

Calif. contr lic works....The sub-game is non-existant....Consumers have recourse...call the lic board...contr resolves problem or ceases to be in biz....No credit, can't pass a simple biz management & trade specific test = no lic....no lic. = no permits issued at bldg depts....Sure there's crooks....but nothing like the widespead crap that goes on in non-lic states.

That's it....signing out...."you can lead a horse to water....."

natty Said: Seems to me, the only reason states require a license for the non-utility trades (plumbers-electricians-hvac) is to force everyone into the insurance pool. In Texas, for years they have been trying to license roofers but it never gets out of committee. The promoter of this idea is the number #1 storm chaser/insurance gamer in the state. A few years back, the legislature actually required dry-wallers to get a state license. The only requirement to get a license is pay the fee and get insurance.

Anyone with a ladder and a hammer may roof a residential house in Texas. That doesnt mean they can roof- just means they dont have to get a state license. I like that idea.

Exactly. And while we roofers may not like the idea that Joe Blow school teacher, who is off work for the summer, can nail on a few shingle roofs for vacation money, this is still America, and we do still cherish freedom here.

P.S. This is what I meant by adapting to the market rather than trying to manipulate it. My dad started nailing on shingles in 1966 and became one of the largest shingle contractors in Denver Colorado. Twenty five years ago he saw a change in the wind - he saw that it's just too easy to get into the shingling business. Rather than complaining about it, he moved into commercial roofing only, which is a lot more expensive to get into. I think it's better to be innovative and to build a niche, than it is to force people to do business with you by default, by limiting who can do their work through regulation.

Why dont we just say, if its too hot in the kitchen....get out! (????) There....end of story....

Because that implies that those against added regulations, are against them because they cannot meet the requirements. I think the opposite is true, that those who dislike undue regulations aren't afraid of competing.

With a good state licensing program, theres really nothing to fear for legitimate businesses....However, for those that like to circumvent laws to increase profits or gain an unfair advantage on their competition, it could result in elimination from the market place.

The whole issue revolves around the fact that those who want to "circumvent" the rules - for whatever their motivation - are going to do so regardless what rules are put in place. Back to Florida, the state with the absolute strictest contractor requirements - and it's chock full of fly-by-nights. It hampers legitimate contractors as much as it does the fly-by-nights.

Kansas has roofing contractor licensure, Texas doesn't. I see no noticeable difference in the number of fly-by-night roofers in Kansas, when you take into consideration the smaller population. I've seen it a jillion times - a hailstorm hits, say, Wichita Kansas, where roofing licensure is required...it doesn't slow down the fly-by-nights one iota. Not even a little. There's simply too much money available - the storm troopers flood in and buy up mom & pop roofing copmpanies with $50,000 in $100 bills, and shazam, they're local and licensed! Doesn't slow them down even a little - what it does is prevent reputatable roofers from Oklahoma from driving 75 miles across th4e state line to help with the storm work.

What you want is noble, kinda - the problem is it just doesn't work.

You used a racing analogy, let me use a gun analogy. New York has one of the strictest set of anti-gun laws in all 50 states - and therefor there are less guns in the hands of criminals in New York, right? Wrong! Chicago does not allow its citizens to own handguns, so therefor very few citizens are being shot by bad guys, right? Wrong! Criminals, and fly-by-nights, don't pay attention to the laws.

There are many proven positives with state licensing.

And yet you haven't named a single one of them. You've given your opinion - everything you've said is supposition and anecdote. And even if you were right, it still makes no sense to give up liberties in pursuit of perceived safety:

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. ---Benjamin Franklin

Seems to me, the only reason states require a license for the non-utility trades (plumbers-electricians-hvac) is to force everyone into the insurance pool. In Texas, for years they have been trying to license roofers but it never gets out of committee. The promoter of this idea is the number #1 storm chaser/insurance gamer in the state. A few years back, the legislature actually required dry-wallers to get a state license. The only requirement to get a license is pay the fee and get insurance.

Anyone with a ladder and a hammer may roof a residential house in Texas. That doesn't mean they can roof- just means they don't have to get a state license. I like that idea.

Why don't we just say, if it's too hot in the kitchen....get out! (????) There....end of story....

I also agree that when it comes to licensing/regulating, the powers at be, so-to-speak, get all out of focus and start anylizing particulars...next thing you know...it's a complete mess....and everyone throws up their hands. Contractor licensing should be through a states' applicable consumer affairs dept....Nothing to do w/techincal applications & such....leave that for the local muniicipalities - bldg/safety depts.

With a good state licensing program, there's really nothing to fear for legitimate businesses....However, for those that like to circumvent laws to increase profits or gain an unfair advantage on their competition, it could result in elimination from the market place.

There are many proven positives with state licensing....However, I have yet to hear one, actaul, legitimate negative....only speculation....

TomB Said: Let me try to present an analogy as I view the situation....I used to race cars in a former life, so Its the best I can come up with.

I was in a race in Texas some years ago. Ended up a rain race....I typically do very well in the rain....This particualar course was run on a huge oval with added corners through the infield....It was raining very heavy and the officials were very liberal with the yellow flags. especially through the infield where theyd through a yellow at the slightest incident, so-to-speak....Now, you must understand, the rules dictate NO passing from a yellow flag - past the incident.

The infield was a prime place, (possibly only), to pass & with yellows through there every time through, it was next to impossible to pass....My team mate, (kid, early 20s), went by me under a yellow, & continued to pick-off drivers on through the race, ending up on the podium I believe.

At the end of the race, in the impound area, several other drivers had noticed his antics and commnented amongst one another....No one officially complained/protested, as most would like to maintain the honorable atmosophere thats typically experienced, and surely he would be disqualified. A couple of drivers had discretely informed him of his unsportsmanlike conduct as well....Well, you guessed it....We were all quite shocked when he accepted his finishing position/award.

Im quite confident I would have finished much better, had my team mate not meddled things up....Im absolutely confident I couldve won had I blatently disregarded the yellow flags as he did....Instead, I swallowed hard and accepted my 6th place or so finish with a smile, as our mechanics & engineer gave a wink....

Im sure Im not the only one who feels similar within the roofing profession

I like that analogy. I too raced. Karts in the 1970's, and later quads moto-X and TT. My little Yamaha Blaster was 200ccv but there was no 200cc class, so I had to race with the 250's and even a few Banshe 350's and 1 Quadzilla 500cc. On a tight moto-x track I could hold my own because my Blaster was a good bit lighter weight (319 lbs) than the other quads, thus I could generally get the holsehot, and come up to speed after corners faster. Well, the big sweeper on the TT track was another matter altogether. Those guys with bigger motors generally would fly by me on the sweep on a TT track.

There were a few ways to deal with that. I could buy a bigger quad. I could complain and ask for a 200cc division (licensing). Or, I could do what I chose to do: Since the track was watered down before the races, there was always a mud puddle at the inside edge of each corner in the track. Since I could usually holeshot them to the first corner, I always dived my quad to get 2 tires into the mud, roosted it and threw mud on the face shields of the first few guys behind me. While they were busy reaching for a tear off, I was putting distance between us.

The point being, you can look to officials to level the playing field, or you can realize you're in a full-contact business and adapt ways to defeat your opponents rather than neutering them.

The very fact-of-the-matter, is that alot of these businesses against state Licensing are succusseful primarilly due to the fact, the legitimate/ethical businesses choose to toe-the-line, so-to-speak....If in fact, all govt regulation was magically lifted and it truly became a survival of the fittest....They would be OUT of biz in a New York second.

I know "a lot" of businesses for whom that is not the case. Kold King is not hampered or helped in any way by licensing of roofers. And yet, everyone at Kold King is against over-regulation. It's not about what can put more money in our pocket, because like I said, it doesn't affect us one way or the other.

It is a much broader priciple that says state, local, and federal regulations are a bigger part of the problem than they are a solution to problems. We have to have some rules, I realize that, but these days rules and laws are promulgated willy-nilly to micro-manage society, and to grant favoritism to well-connected persons. A good example is Obama's Stimulus Package, which we are now learning, was a vehicle to line the pockets of his political donors. The sales patich was that Solyndra was a good green company and a worthy recipient of $535 million of our tax dollars. Everybody felt all warm and cozzy to hand them the money/loan guarantees - only later did we learn the real reason Solyndra got the money.

We sold a rig in a small Kansas town where the large local roofer has for decades restricted competition by working closely with city/county to create such restrictive laws/ordinances that it is nearly impossible for competition to hurdle the barriers to do business in "his" town. As often as not, that's what restrictive licensing is used for, to protect a well-connected cronie, not to protect the general public.

Cases in point are the recent out-spoken oponents here in Colo.....Last time it was the big home bldrs & attorneys; State licensing would ultimately mean they couldnt continue to exploit the ignorant workforce & consumer base....Lawyers would have less work as well....

This last go-around oposition was primarilly orchestrated though hail-chaser roofing operations & attorneys....Because? You guessed it....theyre a , (the), signifigant roofing/construction dominance, as no homes are being built....and....they coulnt continue to exploit....blah-blah....

Those are facts....not speculation.

JMHO/2-cents....

Sometimes bad guys are on the right side of some issues. That's just the way it goes. It doesn't follow that just because a hail chaser is against something, it is therefor bad.

Let me try to present an analogy as I view the situation....I used to race cars in a former life, so It's the best I can come up with.

I was in a race in Texas some years ago. Ended up a rain race....I typically do very well in the rain....This particualar course was run on a huge oval with added corners through the infield....It was raining very heavy and the officials were very liberal with the yellow flags. especially through the infield where they'd through a yellow at the slightest incident, so-to-speak....Now, you must understand, the rules dictate NO passing from a yellow flag - past "the incident".

The infield was a prime place, (possibly only), to pass & with yellows through there every time through, it was next to impossible to pass....My team mate, (kid, early 20's), went by me under a yellow, & continued to pick-off drivers on through the race, ending up on the podium I believe.

At the end of the race, in the impound area, several other drivers had noticed his antics and commnented amongst one another....No one officially complained/protested, as most would like to maintain the honorable atmosophere that's typically experienced, and surely he would be disqualified. A couple of drivers had discretely informed him of his unsportsmanlike conduct as well....We'll, you guessed it....We were all quite shocked when he accepted his finishing position/award.

I'm quite confident I would have finished much better, had my team mate not meddled things up....I'm absolutely confident I could've won had I blatently disregarded the yellow flags as he did....Instead, I swallowed hard and accepted my 6th place or so finish with a smile, as our mechanics & engineer gave a wink....

I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels similar within the roofing profession

The problem I have with most arguments against authentic state contractor state licensing, is that, they,(the argumemts), are illogical, in that there is always going to be gov't....Now, more than ever!

The very fact-of-the-matter, is that alot of these businesses against state Licensing are succusseful primarilly due to the fact, the legitimate/ethical businesses choose to toe-the-line, so-to-speak....If in fact, all gov't regulation was magically lifted and it truly became a "survival of the fittest"....They would be OUT of biz in a New York second.

Cases in point are the recent out-spoken oponents here in Colo.....Last time it was the big home bldrs & attorneys; State licensing would ultimately mean they couldn't continue to exploit the ignorant workforce & consumer base....Lawyers would have less work as well....

This last go-around oposition was primarilly orchestrated though hail-chaser roofing operations & attorneys....Because? You guessed it....they're a , ('the'), signifigant roofing/construction dominance, as no homes are being built....and....they couln't continue to exploit....blah-blah....

Those are facts....not speculation.

JMHO/2-cents....

TomB Said: Ive lived & worked in both, states that have licensing & states that have none.

Florida (Metro Dade, specifically) has the most stringent contractor requirements in the country, and more fly-by-night contractors than anywhere I've ever heard of, if the stories I've heard are true. The fly-by-nights are adept at flying under the radar while the restrictive codes keep legitimate contractors from competing with many of them. I hear it all the time - Kold King rig owners from the north go to Florida to work in the wintertime. The restrictive regulations don't hamper them at all, they just make a deal with a licensed contractor, and go to work.

I'm not saying I approve of that, but back to my whole point, we're not their momma and they don't need our permission.

For a long time, a small handful of issues are all that kept me from considering myself a Libertarian. Then one day I had an epiphany: It's not a matter of whether I agree with any particular issue or not, it's simply that it's not the government's place to dictate morality and pick winners and losers. It is very clearly enumeratated in The Constitution what the government can and can't do. Anything not expressly granted by The Constitution, the government should butt out of. Granted, states have more leeway to create laws and ordinances, but the same limited government principle should apply.

CIAK Said: TomB Your argument about law enforcement. NRA and Florida where citizens have the right to defend them selves. Thank God for this. Instead of the law requiring people to walk away from an arguement, people can stand their ground until someone looks like they might be threatening. You clear leather and open fire. What is the definition of feeling threatened To you TomB? Should apply to Contractors and most other professions. It would clear all the debris in a short period of time and put people in charge of their lives again. No more nanny state. Back like it was in the day when time wasnt like it is today and a mans word was all it took. Cheat or screw with someone, they will come looking for you. You wont be shitting on people for long. B) :) :) B) Deep Down In Florida Where The Sun Shines Damn Near Every Day

Egg-freeking-zactly right!!!

I remember when the sales manager for a large prominent Lubbock roofing company called me up wanting to meet me somewhere to whip me because I'd just taken a large school roof contrtact from him...again. I told him: "Well ok, I own Spur Karate, where I'll be teaching classes tonight till 8pm. Come by after that and I'll try to work you in." Last I ever heard from him. :P

The nanny state mentality is what got us an entire generation of welfare-dependent lazy arses who have no clue how to provide for themselves. The nanny state is fixin' to saddle us with slavery reparations too, if some entitlement enablers get their way. The sad thing is, trying to make life easy and risk free does not help people, it enslaves them to always needing help. This country was built and made great by strong people doing difficult things, not by government entities constantly trying to level the playing field.