Repair ?

Hypothetical repair;

Less than 10 miles from shop.

Easy, basic fix. Less than $10 materials, on hand.

20 minutes between ringing the doorbell and strapping on the ladder, finished.

How much do you charge?

Yep, I fix leaks like that all the time. I don't run into the exact design of Mike's house that often but it's not much different than the old wooden gable vents I run into all the time with the little valleys on each side. But even more often than that is the fascia from an upper roof running into the bottom of a valley on a lower roof. The "roofers" do exactly what seen it all is saying and just cut around the fascia that is right down on top of the decking at the valley bottom. Not only are many of these areas not flashed nor the shingles ran way underneath the fascia and valley but they are not even caulked. Leaving a gap there and then all that water pouring out of the valley.

It is definitely "hack" work taking a shortcut like that. Most likely they have done that their whole roofing life as a sub without ever having stayed anywhere long enough to have to be responsible for their errors and learn by them.

seen-it-all Said:

When the roofer shows up he has a choice of pulling the nails out in this area and feeding the underlay and whole uncut shingles up under the valley base or leaving the nails in and cutting and notching the shingles to fit as best as possible in this area. I would guess that the latter choice was made and there is a spot that is lacking both underlay and shingle close to the tip of the barge board and base of the valley.

Is that really a choice, or does it separate the roofer from the hack? I say that there has to be enough room under that barge rafter and valley decking to slide underlayment and a full shingle under the valley to allow the water to properly shed from that valley to make it right. Sometimes that means the roofer must trim that barge rafter, trim the facia, or trim the decking in the valley and remove some nails. Metal flashing in front of the barge rafter ain't going to cut it. That eyesore of a stain tells me something isn't right in the valley. And if the decking is OSB, it probably has disintegrated. It is a shame that lifetime shingles are failing because of incompetence.

You got it CIAK. I got a call a while back from one of the older and rougher areas of town and didn't feel real great about going there because it's a bad area for one thing but also the homes are old and the roofs are not well maintained generally speaking. Also my closing rate is not as good in these type areas. But I agreed to go anyways. It turned out to just be a small job that I did on the spot for $195. While these kids of jobs in and of themselves wouldn't keep the company doors open, the relationships you speak of will. Three days after doing the little repair for her, she over heard a co-worker at the hospital she works at mention he had a bad roof leak and she told him that she strongly recommended me and gave him one of the cards I had left with her. His job turned out to be a big one with a couple thousand profit. ;)

Chuck Said: The fact is, we could all speculate for ever but until someone comes to your house and inspects the problem in person no one really knows 100% for sure the exact cause of the leak and possibly not even then. The good news is you dont have to know exactly in order to fix it. If its a tricky problem and the person that shows up is not highly experienced there is a good chance of a misdiagnosis, improper scope of work and the leak continuing or even being moved over somewhat.

Whether or not the leak spot on your garage ceiling is directly below the bottom of the valley, slightly above it or just below it is of extreme importance in giving a proper diagnosis because there are 3 common leak areas involved with this particular leak. A valley, a tie in at the bottom of a valley and a large amount of water emptying out of a valley.

If someone can know 100% the cause, then the minimum amount of work can be done to repair it without much concern of the leak continuing. If not then all 3 possibilities should be covered in the scope of work to ensure the leak does not reoccur because theres no profit in going back on jobs for warranty issues. So with all that said, what should be done to nail this sucker on the first attempt? First off, just like a mechanic when you take your car to the shop for repairs, I want to hear the history behind it all. This can sometimes provide vital clues that will help me identify the problem. Secondly, I want to see the underside of the decking from inside the attic if possible and not too difficult to reach. If that isnt feasible, I would open the garage door and take a measurement from the gutter to the leak spot and then get on the roof and do the same. This should put me right on top of the leak area or very close by. The next thing would be to use a nail bar to unstick the shingles and look for rusty nail heads. Why is that necessary? Because the nail heads are only rusted at and below the leak, not above it. This can show me where the leak begins.

If your having a bad hair day or something and dont want to do all that or just cant figure out the exact cause, then what would be the solution? In your case, I would redo the valley, including tearing out a few shingles below the valley, install storm guard below and in the valley, correct the flashing extending it beyond the valley as some others have suggested and seal all the nail heads in the general area just below the valley where the large stream of water runs.

Is all that necessary to repair the leak? Maybe and maybe not. It mostly depends on whether or not I can know the exact cause of the problem. The point is as a roof repair specialist its my job to fix the leak in a professional way, ensure it will not reoccur and ensure that I make a fair profit in the process without having to come back out every time a hard rain comes along, driving both me and the client insane.

Chuck, you and I are very similar in our approach and experience .We are not only in the roofing repair business we are also in the relationship building business. The goal is to ensure at the end of the repair that our customer will feel comfortable referring us to their friends, associates and family. Most of my customers come to me by "word of mouth" and the majority of these customers return when another project is required. B) :) :) B) Deep Down In Florida Where The Sun Shines Damn Near Every Day

twill59 Said: It varies by product woody. If you read CTs manuals, they dont always require it, but DO recommend open valleys on their heavyweights

In addition to the actual performance aspect to having an open metal valley, there's the aesthetic purpose of these shingles. If you buy into the idea that the shading around the edges mimics the depth of having thickness to create the illusion of slate (if you squint hard enough from just the right angle), then you would need to have metal valleys to complete the illusion.

When I said rusty nail heads, I didn't mean your ordinary looking rusty nail heads. I see some roofs around here too where all the nails have some rust but at the leak area the rust will be extreme. The longer it's been leaking, the more so. Many times you'll find water still under there too. Often even days since it's rained last. In extreme cases, the nail can simply be missing due to being totally dissolved.

Egg,

Melodramatic? I think not. Near perfect (and I only say "near" to see if you'll edit it again LOL , since I'll bet it's been through half a dozen or more already)

If a picture paints a thousand words, there at least 10,000 words represented here for all the pictures my mind formed as I read it. Just beautiful.

Chuck, I wouldn't dare touch it. I don't want to ruin any excuse for my bi-coastal roofer buddies to converge on this dilemma. The leak I can live with. The anticipation, however, is killing me.

Chuck says: The next thing would be to use a nail bar to unstick the shingles and look for rusty nail heads. Why is that necessary? Because the nail heads are only rusted at and below the leak, not above it. This can show me where the leak begins.

Around here where I am every nail head on some roofs are rusty since everyone switched to nail guns and electroplated coil nails. The heads are rusty and the shanks are rusty. Had a box go rusty just sitting on the shelf in my shop for a couple of years. Must be the high moisture rain forest we live in here.

With the shanks being so rusty it would lead one to think that there was moisture in the attic that formed condensation on the metal causing the rust. Hard to find a good old hot dipped galvanized roofing nail anymore. You could do a tear off and the shingles would be rotten and the wood rotten but the galvanized nails would still look like the day they came out of the box. Hard on the hands though. They could wear the skin off a rhino.

It varies by product woody. If you read CT's manuals, they don't always require it, but DO recommend open valleys on their heavyweights

Even though I may no next to nothing about comp. that doesn't stop me from commenting on it.

Shouldn't heavy shingles be required to have a metal valley with a center v?

The fact is, we could all speculate for ever but until someone comes to your house and inspects the problem in person no one really knows 100% for sure the "exact" cause of the leak and possibly not even then. The good news is you don't have to know "exactly" in order to fix it. If it's a tricky problem and the person that shows up is not highly experienced there is a good chance of a misdiagnosis, improper scope of work and the leak continuing or even being moved over somewhat.

Whether or not the leak spot on your garage ceiling is directly below the bottom of the valley, slightly above it or just below it is of extreme importance in giving a proper diagnosis because there are 3 common leak areas involved with this particular leak. A valley, a tie in at the bottom of a valley and a large amount of water emptying out of a valley.

If someone can "know" 100% the cause, then the minimum amount of work can be done to repair it without much concern of the leak continuing. If not then all 3 possibilities should be covered in the scope of work to ensure the leak does not reoccur because there's no profit in going back on jobs for warranty issues.

So with all that said, what should be done to nail this sucker on the first attempt? First off, just like a mechanic when you take your car to the shop for repairs, I want to hear the history behind it all. This can sometimes provide vital clues that will help me identify the problem. Secondly, I want to see the underside of the decking from inside the attic if possible and not too difficult to reach. If that isn't feasible, I would open the garage door and take a measurement from the gutter to the leak spot and then get on the roof and do the same. This should put me right on top of the leak area or "very" close by. The next thing would be to use a nail bar to unstick the shingles and look for rusty nail heads. Why is that necessary? Because the nail heads are only rusted at and below the leak, not above it. This can show me where the leak begins.

If your having a bad hair day or something and don't want to do all that or just can't figure out the exact cause, then what would be the solution? In your case, I would redo the valley, including tearing out a few shingles below the valley, install storm guard below and in the valley, correct the flashing extending it beyond the valley as some others have suggested and seal all the nail heads in the general area just below the valley where the large stream of water runs.

Is all that necessary to repair the leak? Maybe and maybe not. It mostly depends on whether or not I can "know" the "exact" cause of the problem. The point is as a roof repair specialist it's my job to fix the leak in a professional way, ensure it will not reoccur and ensure that I make a fair profit in the process without having to come back out every time a hard rain comes along, driving both me and the client insane.

very melodramatic :laugh: (not laughing at you egg, just laughing)

We've been without power for awhile here. Just got it back. California is finally getting a little rain. We patted the freezer this morning and asked it to hang in there, went out for breakfast, drove around awhile, hydroplaned our way out to the coast and watched the heavy seas pounding the cliffs. Hydraulics everywhere on the roads, water pouring in from all kinds of places on the side where you almost never see it. It's been so long since it was an issue that all the usual guys who put on slickers and go out to clear the ditches and culverts and drains were caught looking. Watching water move is always fascinating to me. It's a live thing. We all know this because we work with it all the time but most people don't. They think it's like God dumping a lot of ball bearings down a slope or into a bucket. Drops of water.

Gotta share this tiny piece of my family narrative I've been working on for several years now during the winters:

On an inclined plane, a steel ball released at the top will make a bee-line straight downhill. Water does not do this. Forty years of working with water has shown me that it conforms to several hidden biases and predilections that a steel ball neither recognizes nor has any aptitude for. It tends to stick to itself. When given the opportunity, it will also stick to anything else it touches. It's as if it believes it owns whatever it touches and is reluctant to let go. This is true. It believes that. Sometimes, rather than letting go and taking the easy way, it climbs up what it's touching and clings for dear life. Although it is also a solvent, it is cohesive. This sometimes makes it seem like a liquid paradox, counter-intuitive, and difficult. When it finally yields to gravity it runs with a peculiar sweeping, wobbly motion, as if trying to grab something on its way downhill or for the sheer delight of terrestrial soaring. It will often pass completely over or around a hole rather than drop in and when given its freedom, it never chooses to run straight to anywhere. People are like that. Communities are like that.

It would be a mistake to think that the pioneers pouring through the Cumberland Gap and west from Pennsylvania would bank up against another edict from an English king or another natural barrier and wait there respectfully for an opening to appear.

Like water, they pooled and clung and poured through every available orifice, spreading out in a thousand streams and rivulets on their way to better land, yielding to the gravitational force of opportunity.

A little melodramatic, I know, but we have it good in this business. We get to work with real stuff and get paid while we're doing it. Most artists can work for many many hours, even days, at a highly skilled level and after they're done paying off the gallery's cut they're lucky to make as much for their work as we do on a single small repair job.

One thing I never do is go out on a leak call on one of my jobs thinking, "Not my fault...I didn't do it." Probably I didn't, but maybe I did. What makes us good at this is we try to think like water and we often learn something new when we least expect it. Even after all these years it's still fun.

I did not mean a crooked course Lefty. I was referring to the 1st shingle running up the rake.

Sorry for that. Crooked. A little cocked. Or simply bury it in there but leave it a little long to shed the water out.

I run my normal rake overhang, but cut that 1st shingle going up the rake an extra 1" or so wide. And I start it low so it goes through the valley