TRENDS: A Shinglers Lament

When shingles were $45 sq, I could sell jobs for $330 sq.

When shingles were $60/ sq. I had to sell jobs for $300 sq.

Now that shingles are $80 / sq I am giving away work for $260 and watching others go for about $220 / sq.

I am afraid that shingles might be near $100 per sq. this summer. I don't think I can survive it!

On the one hand, the kid packing shingles is "Staff".

On the other hand, the kid packing shingles is a "Sub Contractor"

Makes total sense....to the government :ohmy:

Are we beat'n a dead horse here?

The sub-game is flourishing more than ever these days....In states w/o state contractor licensing, that is...Maybe I should qualify that; States with the most effective state licensing....

wywoody Said:

TomB Said: Yes, every area/region, and place-in-time, for that matter, has its quirks....Ive been fortunate, (or unfortunate), to have operated/worked in several....What I can say for certain, it that proficiency, (in general), has suffered, as well as ethical standards. It used to the the noble thing to work as hard & proficient as possible for your employer, and to likewise, provide services of true value, (best bang for your buck), to your customer...Now-a-days it seems; Just get as much as you can for wages, while doing as little as possible, and sell for the highest price possible.

Tom, as to your point of regional differences, I recently saw this chart of biggest roofing companies. http://cms.bnpmedia.com/uploaded/RC/Home/Files/PDFs/top100.pdf

Any idea why three of the top 20 are from the Denver area and seem to operate with significantly less manpower than others doing their vollume?

wywoody:

I almost choked on my spit when I seen the biggest "Roofers" in our area on this sheet. Franciscus, Inc. states they have 211 Peak Staff. I wonder if they are thinking that a 1099 guy is staff? I don't know but doesn't the IRS state that those guys must work for other companies also or they must be classified as employees that must have payroll liabilities and the workers compensation on that?

Absolute Roofing & Construction, Inc. States that they have 52 Peak Staff. As someone that knows there business I also know that they only Subcontract to the same guys over and over.

I wonder if that list gets to the IRS can they go back after the payroll liabilities for that year? I also am wondering how much fact checking goes into this list. It doesn't seem legit to have all Sub Contractors and be able to say that they are Staff. Not by the IRS definition of Staff "Employee" VS "Sub Contractor".

Just my two cents that won't by you a cup of coffee..

No doubt, roofing is regional. Here in Miami roofing is mostly legit except in the poorer 'hoods. They enforce code & comp. pretty hard in the nicer areas. We're gettin' 300sq f/3-tabs. Miami-Dade approved 3-tabs are goin' f/$70 +/-

wywoody.....Imagine that! :laugh: Yeah...if the feds ever got wise, there's some fat cats they could just broil....It's amazing how regions/states, what-have-you can continue to thumb their noses at labor/employer laws....Isn't it peculiar, that contractor's in certain states wouldn'r dream of pulling such malarkey, (representing employees as independent subcontractors to skirt paying appropriate labor burdens)?

Minnesota definitely has it going over other States. Ins. might be paying around 250 sq. here. Which is a DREAM for many fellas/ businesses giving it away for $2-220.

My invoiced roofing/ repairs is over $400 per sq. But that includes ALL of the job. In/out tear-off/shingle is not what we do much of.

Ultimately it is not just that the idiots don't charge enough, they also leave too much on the table because they don't have a clue about what to do......except tear off and shingle (See twill shaking head)

pretty text-book stuff Rocky....but I wonder how many actually follow?

Tom B, Those prices remind me of stories my Dad tells of roofing back in the 80's! As a sub he rarely got over $10 square for new construction. He used to do shake installs on piglets for $20 a square!

Back in 06 I was buying Landmarks at $40 a square and doing easy one layer tear offs at $150 a square. My overhead was next to nothing and did most of the work myself. My material cost was $75 a square. In 07 Landmarks jumped to $50 a square and got $200-250 a square. In 08 Landmarks jumped to $105 a square and for a month the 4 most popular colors were out of stock! My price had jumped to $300-450 a square. In 09 Landmarks dropped back down to $90 a square and have stayed there until now. For the past 3 years my material cost is $140-145 a square.

Currently Xactimate in my area for an easy roof pays $300-375 a square. For a 7/12 it's about $400-425 a square. Steep roofs get as much as $475-500+ a square.

There's no secret to why so many storm chasers love big hail storms here in MN!!!

TomB Said: Yes, every area/region, and place-in-time, for that matter, has its quirks....Ive been fortunate, (or unfortunate), to have operated/worked in several....What I can say for certain, it that proficiency, (in general), has suffered, as well as ethical standards. It used to the the noble thing to work as hard & proficient as possible for your employer, and to likewise, provide services of true value, (best bang for your buck), to your customer...Now-a-days it seems; Just get as much as you can for wages, while doing as little as possible, and sell for the highest price possible.

Tom, as to your point of regional differences, I recently saw this chart of biggest roofing companies. http://cms.bnpmedia.com/uploaded/RC/Home/Files/PDFs/top100.pdf

Any idea why three of the top 20 are from the Denver area and seem to operate with significantly less manpower than others doing their vollume?

twill, if shingles are a $100 for you, they will cost me the same. Keep your margins.

"Hey at least the bums in the business are claiming their leaks are fewer since they I&W the entire roof now."

I believe the correct description is that their visible leaks, or call-backs have lessened. I doubt the leaks have lessened. :(

Hey at least the bums in the business are claiming their leaks are fewer since they I&W the entire roof now. :woohoo:

There might be fewer leaks, but they're now harder and more expensive to fix. :side:

It,s simple deduction Make sure your asking price is high enough to keep you in business. You must meet your margins. If you don't you wont be around long or you'll be a very poor roofer working for wages. Do a good job, be honest, communicate and be on time. If you can do that, you can ask for any money you want. Not only that, they will gladly send you all the referrals you can handle at your asking price and you won't need insurance work. Most people just want good service. Pay your staff, inside and out, a fair wage and figure a bonus package if everything goes right. There is nothing like happy employees and nothing worse than disgruntled employees.

Two difs between now and then is:

Chimney flashing then was put in to last. Today they just caulk it

Ventilation then was poor and poorly designed. Today it is a little bit better. However this is more of a design/ contractor than workmanship issue.

But I agree it is a localized thing. I mean no matter where you live, the roofs in the ghetto, will not be as good as in the suburbs, for no other reason than the willingness to spend dollars to do it well.

Yes, every area/region, and place-in-time, for that matter, has it's quirks....I've been fortunate, (or unfortunate), to have operated/worked in several....What I can say for certain, it that proficiency, (in general), has suffered, as well as ethical standards. It used to the the noble thing to work as hard & proficient as possible for your employer, and to likewise, provide services of true value, (best bang for your buck), to your customer...Now-a-days it seems; Just get as much as you can for wages, while doing as little as possible, and sell for the highest price possible.