TRENDS: A Shinglers Lament

I know I'm young TomB, but maybe that's just your area. I've known two old roofers who died in the past few years whose work was nothing to brag about. One was downright sloppy. I hope those kind of guys stay around forever. Although I saw another "competitor's" roof in town the other day installed without starter so all is not lost.

Also, you can bet every man(roofer) on my crew will run 14sq+ a day if it's a common 7/12 or less. It's because my Dad and I set a high pace that most can't keep up with(not shingling, just work in general.) So when we aren't around, the pace may slow down, but it's still pretty good.

Now I think you have something there when you mention the managers. While I was in college, my old man got his head into another business venture and yes, productivity severely dropped ecause he didn't have a guy in the lead who would take responsibility for production. The meth craze that went through here didn't help either.

Very few people want to work hard unless they are being paid very well or are being forced to do so.

UPS became the business it is today by teaching their employees how to work proficiently. They micro manage everything. Watch a UPS driver next time he/she gets in the truck, they will buckle up and start the truck at the same time.

I'll have to dissagree w/Twill on the %'s.....Both from an "outside" , as well as personal perspective. I find far, far more inferior work lateley, as opposed to past.

On the whole, pricing is typically palatable....It's the proficiency that's lacking with the installers and managers, therefore, they need mo $ to operate.

We haven't bid anything less than $350 per square this year. We are not in the business of giving it away. We looked at our averages for the first two months of estimating this year and we are averaging $425.00 this year. We have lost more jobs to the low bidders however, we recently had a major window manufacturer/installer go out of business for not pricing correctly. This is shown to all of our homeowners at the estimate to show the value of our business not just the pricing.

As an outsider, one who was not raised in the trade, after about 27 yrs of doing this, I've come to the conclusion that the % of poor installs are about equal between the generations.

Been looking at both great and crap jobs for the last 27 yrs. They could not have ALL been put on in the last 10 yrs.....

That said, with higher prices and property values, with other aspects of the roof being important, such as venting and flashing, the stakes are much higher now than even 20 yrs. ago.

As O/S wrote, those jobs in the past were simpler. But SOMEHOW wages were higher...... Still........we have gotten into a TON of MAJOR repair work on those simple jobs that were screwed up.

I don't see that changing any time soon B)

That makes two of us. I did a lot in the late 50's and the 60's with my dad and then in the 70's with my BIL as a partner. Always shingling. In the 80's and 90's I had a company and didn't do as much myself, but I missed it. I am old enough now that I just do work for friends but I can still shingle. I just don't like to carry or tear off anymore.

I'll bet I only applied 100 squares last year. I used to do that much every week. The only constant is change for sure. Back then we could put on a lot of shingles, but most everything was 4/12 and straight too. I had one this last summer I worked on by myself that we had roofed 20 years ago. A tree feel on the building and we had to do half of it. 42 squares total. I put on 32 squares by myself over a period of 2 days in a bit less than 8 hours. I really miss that work. I just wish it didn't hurt me so much. Pain is natures way of telling you to slow down.

I haven't done any comp shingles, of any signifigance since 1992, upon relocating to Colorado from California.

That being said; Ya had to be well under $50/sq. to capture any new const. 3-tab in Colo. those days. No-could-do.....So, we introduced concrete tile to the production home bldrs, and did quite well, for a few years, educating bldrs, as well as our competitors & the general tile roofing labor pool, until the local "suedo-sub" mentality & so on, figured things out enough to bring the market price down enough, to drive us elsewhere.

I can remember making $7/sq., as a roofer, putting on 3-tabs in San Diego, (circa 1982); And they had to be hand-nailed!

Mid 80's we did a lot of re-cover w/dimensionals over 3-tabs...4/12....$75/sq....I think we got $67/sq for new const dimensionals..shingles were $35/sq....truckloads $27. Genstar "Firehalts" I believe....We paid $10/sq. (that was a buck or two more than most of the cometitors were paying their guys).

Different times, (30 yrs ago!).....ours guys would typically put on 14-20sqs per day. Today, I pay 3 times that, and they accomplish 1/3 - 1/2 the production.

I wouldn't know what the avgs per sq, are today.

Maybe that is why I don't do many shingles any more.

You are right about the bottom line being the most important tinner. Most guys don't care. I recently had one low baller bragging that he has an 80% closing ratio.

His laborers either have sore butts, or he is broke. One of the two.

I would not want the liability. Or the hassle of changing my name every 3 yrs. to avoid it :dry:

Oh, and advertise to do the repair work on those cheaply done roofs. I spend lots of time repairing the messes made by lo-ballers.

I only offer quality. Not low prices. It cuts volumne down, but increases the bottom line.

And it will get worse. What the Genius Storm Chasers with their Sub Contract Pricing, don't understand, is that as they drag down the High End, it lowers the overall average that the Desk Jockeys calculate.

So this yr. Exactimate pays $240. Next year more Contractors cut prices, the Desk Jockeys will "Find" a lower Average and the new Cut Throat Standard will be $230. And the year after that even less & less.

At some point the Mexicans will either go home or start their own businesses based on below sub contract pricing. Yes, even LOWER!

And when they cut even lower than the Sub Contractors that control the market now, the cheating Anglos will complain about the cheating Mexicans. As if there is a difference......

Isn't that the sad truth! I can only summarize it's because this business attracts a lot of bottom feeders with the work saying "high work is not eye work"