Snap lines ??

TRG you are not only a roofer, but you are a "God" But right on all accounts! I think it is funny to read some of the exploits of the "roofers" posted here and other places. Like you say, when you finally get down to the where the rubber meets the road, the facts don't often line up with the claims. No matter how fast a person may be, the best way to determine it would be to let them work for a month or 5 and then divide the number of squares installed by the number of hours they worked. that would be a real measure of production. When I was younger and we hand nailed everything, we used to try and get at least 1 square per hour per man at the end of the day. 5 men, 8 hours, 40 squares. Now we could certainly do more than that, but I am talking about travel time, set up, felting drip edge, cleanup, everything. If you average 4 bundles per man hour, you are up to 53 squares. ALL moves count when talking about production.

Serrano Said: This reminds me of the hand nail 40 sq in a day posts.For every hand nailer I have met that boasted about there amazing exploits,but were unable to replicate them in real life on our jobs,we found the same storys about being able to roof with no lines and it coming out perfectly strait.

The hand nailing speed was made because these guys usually failed to that the felt had been laid,roof loaded,and had a feeder.I am concerned abou about how fast and welll the complete square is done within our production # not how fast you canslap a shingle down and miss align the nails.

With lines I have found 2 things.#1When not snapping I pooint out how far off the lines are they cant see it.You have 2 people looking at it differently.#2Thats OK because I straiten out the top 3 rows so you dont see it along the ridge.I have also found that these guys dont properly locate nails,cut clean rake edges,run straight ridge,ect..And I can tell you that they are honest in believing what they are doing is as good or better than the way we install,and faster.They are gone quick.

I am not saying this is anyone on this board,just that the dozens of guys I have heard these storys from have not been able to truly asses the job quality because they have nothing else to compare it to intraining or there market because this may be the standard in there area.

Have to agree there,have done 24 sq a day handnailing,and as much as 35 sq a day with the gun with a squeaky clean finished product--Have had plenty claim more squares but find the workmanship to be crap,and that they cut mega corners on the details--I always trained the guys to learn how to do it right 1st,then work on the speed,everything especially the angle you hold the gun at when nailing,makes a difference,many roofs the "roofer" has popped nails all over which cut thru the shingles later because they couldn`t hold the gun right

This reminds me of the hand nail 40 sq in a day posts.For every hand nailer I have met that boasted about there amazing exploits,but were unable to replicate them in real life on our jobs,we found the same storys about being able to roof with no lines and it coming out perfectly strait.

The hand nailing speed was made because these guys usually failed to that "the felt had been laid,roof loaded,and had a feeder.I am concerned abou about how fast and welll the complete square is done within our production # not how fast you canslap a shingle down and miss align the nails.

With lines I have found 2 things.#1When not snapping I pooint out how far off the lines are they cant see it.You have 2 people looking at it differently.#2"Thats OK because I straiten out the top 3 rows so you dont see it along the ridge."I have also found that these guys dont properly locate nails,cut clean rake edges,run straight ridge,ect..And I can tell you that they are honest in believing what they are doing is as good or better than the way we install,and faster.They are gone quick.

I am not saying this is anyone on this board,just that the dozens of guys I have heard these storys from have not been able to truly asses the job quality because they have nothing else to compare it to intraining or there market because this may be the standard in there area.

Id probably snap 2-3 lines around that dormer -- Pretty long valley to back shingle -- Quicker to snap a couple

Lines for me. Wish I could just slap some pix up because I have some doozies! :laugh:

On a side like that, I would measure down from the top and strike lines every 4 courses. If you are off by a 1/4 of an inch when you start at the bottom of the valley, you end up with the mess he has just above the two stack pipes. At least he tried to straighten it our at that point. I have seen roofs where they do the same thing and end up having 3 and 4 more rows of shingles at the valley because they were running downhill so badly. It is not that hard to do it right.

I see this place all the time and every time it reminds me of what happens when you have a roofer that can't use a tape or chalkline. It might even contribute to why this house has sat unsold for 2 years.

Tom, do you mean striking lines and following them or even the question of what is "good enough?"

The reason I ask is because I am old enough to remember the "Big Three" when they controled most of the car market in the States. They made junk and by "they" I mean the UAW and the Management. They were too big to be bothered, and "where else would the customers go?" It was all junk, but it was "good enough" It took a while, but they all got their asses handed to them on a platter.

OUR customers, and by that I mean all of our customers on this forum, are not stupid. Given the choice, they will take quality over "good enough" and they are and they will. I am not criticizing anyone for how they do their jobs, but I want everyone to think of why they do what they do and if it can be improved. In the short and the long run, it will benifit us all!

Like Lanny; Never heard of such a thing prior to this board! Bizzarro! Been installing comp since 1980...Lot's & lot's of it!

What is "good enough" is a retorical question for everyone to answer for themselves. It is similiar to asking "how much is enough" when you are talking about money. We ALL tend to want to stretch the limits and test the waters, but where do we stop?

All the lines in the world won't keep a roof straight if they are a. Measured incorrectly or b. not followed! All of the gauges in the world won't keep a roof straight if they are not used. If you can install a roof "good enough" without lines, and you can be proud of it when you walk away, then I say go for it.

I will say that whatever we do in the small things, we will also do in the larger things. I try and disipline myself to always do things for others in exactly the same way I would do them for myself. I believe it is called the "Golden Rule" Nothing new there eh! It really doesn't take any longer to do things the right and correct way, and I am certainly not just talking about roofing here. Wouldn't it be a great world if everyone did their best?

I look at some of the pictures that Mike from NZ posts and I am constantly impressed with his attention to detail. He works by himself and if there is a mistake, he knows exactly who to blame. Mike Hicks has posted some of the pictures of his jobs and he has a large crew. Those pictures show great attention to detail. Twil shows the same disipline with his pictues of copper work and slate. We work with slate and tile and try to do a nice and neat job with that. I could go on and on, but you get the picture.

There is a Japanese term for it and I believe it is Kansai, but it means "Continual Imporvement" You are always striving to improve in everything. Most are small things, but they all add up to the whole. Think of this when you are working and figure out what "good enough" means to you

:blink:

I watched the unforgiven tonight with clint where he says - I havew killed just about everything that has ever walked or crawled in my time --

I can honestly say i have laid shingles on almost every surface known to man -- I have put them on roofs -- sidewalks -- driveways - trails in the woods - in the pond - even nailed them to trees -- bottom of my boat -- used theem as shims under cabnits windows doors god i could go on and on -- :woohoo:

Old School, Well i cant rightfully answer What is good enough? -- But i will tell You -- if you were tell me it is good enough i would bet my bottom dollar it would be better than just good enough. I have read lots of your posts and seen lots of pictures and i know exactly where your coming from.

I have worked along side of perfectionists as well as hacks and i would much rather work besides a guy like you then the other.

I actually have a guy on my crew now that screws around snappin 10" lines everywhere :) -- Funny thing is i end up not following them exactly anyhow i find my style overides the lines half the time -- Some people run the slot exact some a finger nail above or below the exposure line - i dont even gauge them with the gun anymore - Heck last roof we finished i finished the last 2 sq in the dark and they were straight enough - by that i mean not a roofer in the world would be able to tell they were layed in the dark or say man thats f'n crooked --

You are right on all accounts, but the question is still, "What is good enough" It doesn't take me an hour to strike lines. If a person can't measure, use the G-tape. In my experience, measuring and knowing exactly where you are on a roof at all times is like having sharp tools. In the long and short run, it is faster, plus it is just right!

Where are our "minimum standards?" Where is our quality control? Should the shingles be installed according to the instructions? How many of us have actually read the instructions on the package? EVER? Do you think they put them there for a reason? IF the shingles are supposed to laid at a 5 inch exposure, does 5 1/2 really matter? Why not 6 inches? If you ordered a glass of beer, would you really care if they only filled it to within 4 inches of the top? What is "good enough?"

Don't get me wrong i like straight shingles as well but good enough depends on what you are talking about -- Like a roof is a roof it serves 2 purposes - 1. to keep the elements out - 2. to look good from the ground or out a window or adds charecter to a realy expensive house.

So would you go out and buy $1000.00 rims and tires for that rusted out 1979 pinto -- to make the tires perfect or close to it? or go to the junk yard and pick up some 50 dollar cheapies with good tread?

So on an average house it may be overkill to spend all the time triing to make perfect if house has been out of square for the last 50 years - some minor truss sagging -- some uneven cracked roof boards -- knot holes etc all which can be fixed a number of different ways -- what wrong with straightining shingles a course or 2 before the ridge vs spending an hour or so measuring -- sister a couple trusses in and running a brace from opposite rafters -- vs tearing up the decking and having new ones ordered or hand framing -- throw a couple pieces of metal over the knot holes - vs replacing 100's of extra ft of wood work -- saving the homeowner a few bucks in the process and let them know there may still be a dip or a sag here or there but your roof will still do its job and function like a roof should.

Now if all you have is clients or customers that own half million to million dollar homes or more and they want everything perfect -- One can justify chargeing extra to do the job perfect i have had several homeowners like that but it does not mean one roof will out perform the other when we are only talking aesthetics. So good enough greatly depends on what you are working on.

Snap lines on every roof? No -- on some roofs yes -- overlooking window -- 50 ft or more in lenght-- Or the engineer who measures everything to the 10 thousands of an inch etc..

Try this if you have some friends of your wife or someone that has not had their roof done or looked at in say 5-10 years ask them what color they think it is -- I think you would be surprised at how many people actually do not even look up except us roofers. I dont know how many times i broke out the sample book and asked what color do you like and they say jeez what color do i have now?