what to do with a rubber roof

my brother in law's shop has a rubber roof that has pin holes and small tears all over it. He says its about 10 years old, I think its more like 20. Could I just put insulation over it and put a new roof on. it's a tire warehouse I don't think it's heated. has a steel deck. I think there may be a BU roof under the rubber with no insulation between them. Of coarse money is the issue.

Mike H Said: I can easily see what you guys are describing as working very well. Ive spread a lot of emulsion over the years, and I know in another life, Bob has specd it w/aluminum over premium BUR specs.

But for Coppermans case, lets compare some costs, as he did say cost was a driving issue: Modified - $60/square Propane - $1.50/square Disposal of EPDM - Local cost of dumpster Torch - $150.00 Labor - Whatever Copperman wants to charge his relative.

I have no idea what youd be talking about for cost on a 12/4 over poly, or cost of the spray rig, or charge to install by a qualified applicator. ????

Mike, the beauty of the chopped glass/emulsion system is that, depending on the size of the job, that spec could be bid at $125/SQR to $350/SQR and make money. The range is unusually large compared to other roof systems. Material cost on that spec might run around $58/SQR. The big variable is how big the roof is. Since these rigs are designed for big production, you'd make little profit doing a 20 SQR job for $125/SQR, and I wouldn't even bid a big one that low. But the beauty is that I could if I wanted to, say if bidding got very aggressive on a plum job, I could outbid everyone involved, by a wide margin, and still make money and give the customer a roof that will last a long long time.

These facts are part of the reason the system is reviled by some who don't do it.

Btw, I'm recoating the aluminum on a large church roof I did in 1985. They got paid to recoat due to hail. I met the chairman of the building committee yesterday. He told me: A new board member is also a contractor and he really pushed for us to go with a different kind of roof. I told the board that we'd be stupid to because I've been with this church for 34 rears and we always had roof problems until you guy came along (in 1985). I told them, no way, we're going back with what we know works.

If you can't sell roofs when you have those kind of references, you're not much of a salesman.

:cheer: :cheer:

I can easily see what you guys are describing as working very well. I've spread a lot of emulsion over the years, and I know in another life, Bob has spec'd it w/aluminum over premium BUR specs.

But for Copperman's case, lets compare some costs, as he did say cost was a driving issue: Modified - $60/square Propane - $1.50/square Disposal of EPDM - Local cost of dumpster Torch - $150.00 Labor - Whatever Copperman wants to charge his relative.

I have no idea what you'd be talking about for cost on a 12/4 over poly, or cost of the spray rig, or charge to install by a qualified applicator. ????

Kade, that's it exactly. It's the hardest concept to get through to people, especially roofers who tend to be very slow to change their minds from what they've been doing/saying forever. But when they finally get it, you can see in their eyes it's like it hit them all at once. The concept is that people judge emulsion/glass roofs against ten thousand different scenarios, except the one that matters...the one that matters is how glass/emulsion lasts on a given roof compared to anything else you could have done. Glass/emulsion wins that nearly every time.

I go into this a lot in our Powerpoint during training - that the customer gives hot BURs undue credibility because they've been around over 100 years. It doesn't matter if they've been around 9 thousand years, they only last as long as they last. The NRCA did a study once that said the average 20 year spec hot BUR lasts 7.5 to 9 years, so what does 100 years have to do with anything??? What is more important is that in an apples-to-apples comparison, a glass/emulsion roof lasts a lot longer than a hot BUR, can be installed in a lot more situations, can get a Class-A fire rating with no gravel, and won't blister, anmd usually costs less. What's NOT better about that???

It's been crazy around here too. The wind has blown 25-40 mph just about every day - there has been maybe 3 sprayable days in the last month. It generally gets better soon though. We should be able to start that job in Fort Worth pretty soon. If not, we're going to train my son on my brother's roof in Spur, Tx which is just an hour from Lubbock. We could get you in here for either of those.

Just thought I would throw my two cents in on this one. Glass/emulsion roofs wear only through oxidization like the paint on your car, they wear at about a thousands of an inch a year witch is 1 mill. (approx) this being said a roof sprayed with a 12-3 is 120 mills that roof will be there long after we are dead! Now because my dad has been around glass/emulsion and helped create it I have seen roofs 60 years old and still shedding water. I'm not going to say that all emulsion roofs last more than 20 years it depends on what kind of roof foundation you are starting with. A roof that is totally shot de laminating seems,construction splits,ect may only last 10 to 15 years. This being said how long do these new single membranes last? How many tpos are they going to make before they get it right? hbu roofs have became garbage do to manufactures getting the bottom 1% of the oil that makes for a bad product that only last 5-8 years. Tim I think you are spot on this one 4-gallons poly 12-4 on top over epdm that's a great roof! For the record poly is just a divorcing agent so expansion and contraction does not telegraph through, the strength comes from the fiberglass being installed in the jackstraw pattern giving it the tinsel strength of steel.

P.S. Tim we still need to get togather lots of stuff happening on my end getting close to haveing a plan for my next adventure. :lol:

Mike H Said: Tim & Bob,

Knowing you both, Im quite sure the two of you would get along just peachy face to face, and probably like each other very well. Interpretation and writing styles are not meshing, but youre both cool. Pull out some guns, talk about WWII pilots, talk about the govt is screwing everyone and everything except the entitlements crowd.... and youd both agree that they are screwing them too in order to keep them dependent.... You are both passionate, fiercely loyal, and really are a lot alike in many regards.

Copperman,

Once rubber starts to tear, it tears very easily, and will likely continue to tear under any coating you might apply. Some may have sufficient tensile strength and be poorly adhered so that the tears can continue under the coating, but for my money, Id take off the rubber and torch a cheap mod bit directly to the BUR. The cost of removing the rubber is miniscule. Then start saving money with the intent to roof it right in the next 12-15 yrs. However, in todays market with energy costs being what they are, a well insulated roof system (min R-18) can pay for itself within 10 years in a climate controlled building. If its heated, what he saves in heat costs could go a long way toward paying the loan on a new roof. Im a firm believer that right the first time is almost always cheaper.

And before doing any of that, I would make some core cuts and make sure the deck is sound. Dead people get very expensive, very quickly.

Yep, this is why we like a poly fabric divorcing sheet. The polypropylene we use is around 4 times stronger than Tie Tex T272. I've never seen it split...it's designed as a paving underlayment to keep trucks from breaking up the pavement...very strong and yet with many more times the elongation you'll find on a roof.

Now with that said, I just had to share the following. It's the ultimate "everything wrong" roof. Installed in 1981 its a single layer of Derbigum HP over a wet asbestos roof. No edge details, no coating, bull-n-rag.... In year 25 (2006) we coated it, reflashed everything, installed T-bar on top of the wall flashings, added new gutter and drip edges, and it's floating along, now 30 years later quite well.

It was a local school and a "What can we do to get by for 4-5 years until we can afford a good roof" solution. I'm first to admit that sometimes the ability to think outside the box is a tremendous asset.

Jackleg 101

Never discount the waterproofing capabilities of pigeon chit. LOL Could we call this Bird -n- Rag?

[IMG]http://inlinethumb64.webshots.com/48575/1125763211049336972S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG]

Jackleg 102

Howzbout that edge detail?

[IMG]http://inlinethumb25.webshots.com/45848/1125761302049336972S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG]

Tim & Bob,

Knowing you both, I'm quite sure the two of you would get along just peachy face to face, and probably like each other very well. Interpretation and writing styles are not meshing, but you're both cool. Pull out some guns, talk about WWII pilots, talk about the gov't is screwing everyone and everything except the entitlements crowd.... and you'd both agree that they are screwing them too in order to keep them dependent.... You are both passionate, fiercely loyal, and really are a lot alike in many regards.

Copperman,

Once rubber starts to tear, it tears very easily, and will likely continue to tear under any coating you might apply. Some may have sufficient tensile strength and be poorly adhered so that the tears can continue under the coating, but for my money, I'd take off the rubber and torch a cheap mod bit directly to the BUR. The cost of removing the rubber is miniscule. Then start saving money with the intent to roof it right in the next 12-15 yrs. However, in today's market with energy costs being what they are, a well insulated roof system (min R-18) can pay for itself within 10 years in a climate controlled building. If it's heated, what he saves in heat costs could go a long way toward paying the loan on a new roof. I'm a firm believer that "right the first time" is almost always cheaper.

And before doing any of that, I would make some core cuts and make sure the deck is sound. Dead people get very expensive, very quickly.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Side note: Many emulsion roofers just "chop" directly over the EPDM and I've never heard of a single issue with that. However, as an added safety margin, our roofing company always installs poly fabric set in 4 gallons of emulsion over EPDM, then the 9/3 over that. It's probably overkill but it's cheap insurance.

Echoing what Kade said, chopped glass/emulsion systems get a bad rap because of a handful of knuckleheads out there who bought a rig on the secondary market, and set out to make their fortune in 2 years of working storms. And, admitedly, a few of them bought a rig from us - one of them right in Bob's backyard. We sold 4-5 rigs we wish we hadn't sold, but in our defense, I don't know of ANY equipment manufacturer who will refuse to sell a rig for any reason whatsoever...I've turned down around 10-15 rig sells in the last 5 years...that's over $300,000.

Maybe you should re-write your original recommendation so it does not conflict with your website as well as other postings of yours that I have read that stress the importance of proper training in the use of the emulsion product and your spray rig equipment.

Bob, this is a roofing forum where everyone is assumed to have a basic understanding of how roofs are built. If a guy says 3-tabs can be installed on a house, he is not then obligated to list 9 paragraphs of every detail, limitation and disclaimer as though he is selling Lipitor on TV.

Pitch a process that has some semblance of a starting point and an end point.....not just a product.

Kold King sells equipment that installs emulsion roofs - emulsion roofs ARE "the product." Our marketing would not be very effective if it were watered down with every detail about how roofs are installed, would it? That is the purpose of technical bulletins, not marketing.

In reading your first post, it appears to me at least that you are saying Copperman can go get some coating stuff and spray it down onto the EPDM. What such as existing conditions and preparation work prequalifies this as a viable solution??

Again, it was a generalized answer to a general question. It was never intended to be anything but. I was merely pointing out that emulsion is an option on EPDM, sometimes. My post was not intended to list all of the limitation, procedures, etc.

I guess I am still struggling with emulsion applied directly to EPDM.

Would it make you feel better to know that several large manufacturers approve of it? With all due respect, isn't that approval more important than you approving of it? Do you understand how emulsion works and why it can be applied where other asphalt cannot? There are no solvents, that's a start.

I agree whole-heartedly the other posters who recommended performing test cuts first....that is a good starting point to determine what options can be explored before any product can be considered.

Well now you've just given the same kind of overly-generalized answer that you're beating me up for. What purpose is served by core cuts (potential new leak areas) on a roof over a concrete deck with no insulation? What about a roof that has had an IR roof moisture survey which show no wet insulation? You're doing the same thing you're accusing me of, leaving out important details.

Mr. Adams, based on what I have experienced with the people in general and the roofing market as a whole I have a hard time assuming much of anything. As far as assumptions are concerned, you have taken your assumptions about me to a level that most people would take exception to. I may not be the brightest bulb in the lamp as well as being riddled with imperfection, but based what others have told me ….I am actually a pretty decent fella.

It's no fun is it? Maybe if you'd stop making unfair assumptions about me, I'd return the favor.

In closing, I would like to mention that it appears that our views (yours and mine) on the government situation are very parallel and I would like to think that I am every bit as upset with what is going on in our country as you are, if not more. I just don’t understand how you can associate me with all the governmental rhetoric. So feel free to assume whatever you like and vent as you please….I’m done with this. BP

We do things different in Texas. We live by the concept of Caveat Emptor, with some exceptions. We have no licensing for roofers, no sales tax. We still believe in the concept of people looking out for themselves rather than having the government or some association tell them how to build a roof when in most cases the roofer has 10 times more experience than does the governing body.

Bob, you work for an exception roofing company whose reputation is beyond reproach. I didn't know that until I opened your profile. That alone gives you more credibility and respect than I probably should have given you initially, it also means that you have the luxury of handling your business in a way that other roofing companies cannot. But again, we operate in a vastly different market than you do. We get hail, grapefruit sized hail, and we get it about every decade or so. We contend with storm trooper roofers the likes of which you probably cannot imagine. It's a more dog-eat-dog market down here and it requires that we do things a little differently. The bottom line is, we build roofs that last 25-40 and really that's all the customer is concerned with.

Here is an example of why we do things that my dad has learned through 43 years of roofing that others may or may not agree with...or understand: The general concensus used to be that you always remove blisters before installing a retrofit. Always! It wasn't until recent years that a major roofing association began saying what my dad has been saying for decades, and that is that, generally speaking, you do more harm than good to remove small "static" blisters that are deep in the plies. It has always been our approach that you remove large blisters, and those that can be fractures by stepping on them, and those that are dynamic and inflating with heat/cool cycles. For years it looked like we didn't know what we're doing, and suddently when a roofing organization figures it it, now we're doing it right? The point is that we do things that we know work, and we dfon't always blindly follow the "leaders."

Mr. Adams, Maybe you should re-write your original recommendation so it does not conflict with your website as well as other postings of yours that I have read that stress the importance of proper training in the use of the emulsion product and your spray rig equipment. Pitch a process that has some semblance of a starting point and an end point.....not just a product. In reading your first post, it appears to me at least that you are saying Copperman can go get some coating stuff and spray it down onto the EPDM. What such as existing conditions and preparation work prequalifies this as a viable solution?? I guess I am still struggling with emulsion applied directly to EPDM. I agree whole-heartedly the other posters who recommended performing test cuts first....that is a good starting point to determine what options can be explored before any product can be considered. That is part of the process that I build upon when customers look to me for providing them with the information they need to make the best decisions for their particular situation. In your second posting you mention the following:

Most questions asked here assume two things that need not be typed each and every time: 1. It is assumed the repairs will be according to "local" code. 2. Most contractors know, without you having to inform them, that they can't go over a saturated deck.

Mr. Adams, based on what I have experienced with the people in general and the roofing market as a whole I have a hard time assuming much of anything. As far as assumptions are concerned, you have taken your assumptions about me to a level that most people would take exception to. I may not be the brightest bulb in the lamp as well as being riddled with imperfection, but based what others have told me ….I am actually a pretty decent fella.

In closing, I would like to mention that it appears that our views (yours and mine) on the government situation are very parallel and I would like to think that I am every bit as upset with what is going on in our country as you are, if not more. I just don’t understand how you can associate me with all the governmental rhetoric. So feel free to assume whatever you like and vent as you please….I’m done with this. BP

It's a sore spot with me, Lanny. I see this country going down the toilet because too many people have grown up depending on the nanny state and the government holding everyones' hand so they don't get cheated. Collectivism at it's worst!

It's why I don't do government roofs anymore, even local government. In the late 80s my little roofing company was doing more large West Texas school contracts than anyone I know of. After awhile I got tired of all the red tape that had nothing to do with the roof - bid bond, performance bond, payment bond, architects, roof consultants, etc. It's a rat race.

On another thread I mentioned that I just sold some solar pumps to a government agency. Sheesh, I wish I hadn't!!! I had no idea they were going to a government agency - they guy used his credit card and address. Next thing I know I get this e-mail: You recently had contact with my co worker, ### #####, and he purchased 2 solar pumps. You provided him with your vendor ID # ###########. I faxed a state W-9 to you on 4/26/11 but I have not received it back to date. We need this completed so that we can enter you into our State system. This will enable me to complete the purchase of the solar pump & any future purchases with your company. I have attached another W-9 for your completion. Please complete and email back to me.

Thank you ###### ######## Dept of Military & Veterans’ Affairs ###-###-####

Our government has run amuck.

---Roofguy hits a home run! Had me laughing...

Lanny

Mike, I agree with that, and I stayed out of the fray until it got a personal. In fact, it wasn't a fray until Bob ran by and tossed a stinkbomb in the room.

FWIW, we have many of our retrofit roofs that have been on 27 years and have not been retouched because of hail. That's the nature of emulsion, it does not have saturants that bake out - rather it erodes each year microscopically. Apply it thick enough and it can last as long as coal tar pitch (40+ years).

Most of the roofers who knock it don't have a single roof of any kind that has lasted 27 years.

But at a more fundamental level, Bob's post annoys me. I'm a believer in free markets, and a constitutionalism that says we don't need the nanny state telling people what they can and can't do. So long as a roofer isn't endangering the public or ripping them off, leave him alone and let he and the reasonably intelligent building owner work out what the owner's roofing needs are. I used to get my rear ripped because I had a few million sq ft of black surfaced roofs on here in West Texas. Roofers told me it was irresponsible, but the building owners loved it. I could make those black roofs last 20+ years and do it at a very reasonable price that appealed to the owner. And if it's on a warehouse out in the middle of nowhere with no heat/AC, the owner couldn't care less about interior temps.

Actually, Bob P, the Technical Services Mgr. at Hicks Roofing, Inc., wouldn't have any problem presenting examples of our re-roofs that are now 30 years old. One of which actually did violate just about every "accepted" example of good roofing practices.

Tim, I hope you can admit that there is some degree of poor advice on this thread, and that doing something right in an area not ravaged by hail every 8 years, tends to be of far greater long term benefit and financial reward than not.