sub-contracting

To give you a bit of history of my company; this is our 61st year in the roofing biz without ever closeing or changing biz name. My father started and ran the biz for 30 yrs and this is my 31st year. I have a 25 yr old son that is my right hand man and he wants to take over some day. We are in a medium sized town of 175,000 peeps. Much of our work comes by refferals but we also advertise small in the yellow pages. I employ about 9 men making up 2 crews in peak season and shut down for bout 12 weeks in winter. The only work that I have sub-contracted out is the gutter work that I may sell with a roof job. Now Im from the old school where the ropes and harnesses on roofs have never happened and when thinking bout this new osha rule taking effect keeps me up at night figuring out how to be profitable. Does any of you do the sub-contracting thing exclusively. Im thinking I could sell enough work to keep 4 or 5 crews busy since they will all be required to follow the osha rule which I feel will slow each project down considerably. If each crew is a partnership company in itself will they have to follow the osha rule. I know that I dont have to since im the owner. There use to be a roofing co. in town that only subbed years ago and they kept several crews going. We have never subbed our work out since I feel the quality of workmanship would go down but between my son and I I feel that we now may be able to control that. I know that I could save a ton on WC and other insurances. Sorry for the long rant but Im hopeing some of you can give me some constructive pointers or pitfalls to watch for. Thanks in advance-------------------H

soldierboy...I am aware of the rules. In my state it has been 6 feet anyway which covers any roof. ---Since I do almost all residential I doubt I will ever see an OSHA inspector. We have state labor & Industry inspectors that can appear anytime even in remote neighborhoods because competitors call you in. ---It is the commercial high visibility work that will need to be very compliant. ---I also agree that using subs does not relieve you of the rules. I have done jobs as a sub and the general contractor required all subs to be 100% compliant. I even had to attend a safety meeting before I could set foot on the job. On those jobs roofers had to wear hard hats and have steel toed boots among many other specifics. Lanny

Lanny,

The rules on a 4/12 are going to be no different than a 6/12 this summer. Everything else that was stated I am in agreement with. It's just like taking a ladder to the job, after a month every employee is used to it and they feel naked without putting on the safety gear. Owners have the duty to keep their workers safe. If it means putting the blame on OSHA for making up the rules then blame them, however in the long run it's one less thing to worry about. Subbing out the work is no different. Big company that finds the work is now responsible. Trust me on this one. The lawyers are going to find the one that holds the check... I have seen companies get fined for something that there sub did. Both companies got fined. Not a good choice at all to take your quality out of the mix just to try and beat OSHA. You won't win. Maybe for awhile but the statistics will catch up to you.

Lanny, thanks for that post. It certainly gives me something to think about.

---The original reason for all the rules was to keep employers from getting rich risking the lives of their workers to do so. Think of coal mines, heavy industries, and of course, construction. For decades safety was ignored and in fact, workers were put in high risk situations just so some owner could get rich. ---Over time every job has come under this very large safety umbrella. That is, every occupation has been analyzed for risk and safety rules have been put in place. ---Roofing is no exception. Since falling off the roof is a major cause of accidents, medical claims and disability payments... rules regarding "fall protection" have become standard. ---If you institute a company safety plan after awhile it is just part of the job and no more difficult than taking a ladder to the job or other tool. That is, it is not that much more difficult to use a ladder than to "secure" a ladder. ---Last week we did a high visibility commercial roof right on a main highway. I called a buddy who does this and got the low down on what was required. 1) ladder must be securely tied off 2) we used a perimeter flagging system that I was able to borrow from him (take 15 minutes to set up) The flagging system is set up 6 feet from the roof edge. We could have installed a 200lb test railing but that was far more diffucult to install. Of course, this is an almost flat roof. 3) we had one person employed as a safety monitor. He wears a high visibility safety vest and hard hat. He cannot work other than to notify any worker working outside of the perimeter flagging lines and keeping them from falling, etc. He cannot touch a broom, swing a hammer or any other task that might interfere with his one and only job of safety monitor. 4) we completed a written safety plan for this jobsite. My buddy has a one page sheet that I photo copied to use and then just filled in the blanks. 5) purchased an OSHA approved first aid kit (that we will never open or use so it will always be approved...) 6) We did not have someone with a current first aid card (you take a class for this and get a card qualifying you as a such and such...)

Now this was not really all that difficult or inconvenient. We charged the safety monitor's cost to the job and yes, it cost about an extra $450. Other than that everything else was easy and doable.

We always have out harness kits on any job. Now we may not always use them but they are there if we need them or even need to look compliant. I admit on a one story 4/12 we don't always break them out. They are not that big a deal once you get used to it. ---For installing the roof they are fine ---For tearing off we work in relays...that is, the person farthest from the truck may only carry debris to one point while another person takes it the rest of the way. When you are used to it you hardly notice it. ---On a 10 or 12/12 roof harnesses can actually speed up the tear off. You can work without trying to avoid slipping or falling.

We live in a litiguous society. As a company owner I do not like being liable for accidents. Guess who gets sued if the company is placing workers at risk?

My 7 year old grandson broke his arm 4 wks ago. The medical bills SO FAR are over $17,000. That could easily have been a roofer. Who pays for that???

Lanny

Tom, actually, that is very astute of you! OSHA is "meant" to be all about safety for the working man, but in actuallity, it is much more about control than enything else. I am not against safety, or helmets for bikers or safety belts, but I am against requiring their use and fining people for not using them. Where is personal choice here?

The paradox I see is that in some things, people are all about choice, and at the same time, the same people are demanding that we have no choice. Everyone is "equal", but some people are more equal than others. I am glad that I am about to retire and live off all of the rest of you.

I wonder how the documentation would work to prove each of these people are self -employed? (The IRS has done a "wonderful" job of this :angry: ) Should they carry proof on the job? To the OSHA hearing? To court?

I would think hatchetman, your OSHA friend is only slightly less clueless as the rest of us. In a "nation of laws", it is amazing how ineffective (inefficient) they are.

Ultimately the many grads of college w/ management and law degrees will only have a career managing other people's lives, not their performance. There will be a job in the DC Kremlin awaiting them where they can look forward to a career and become a "Successful Failure"

They will get their overpriced student loans paid off someday, become contributing members of the 2 Commie parties and hire someone who does not follow safety regs to roof their house in the suburbs.

"He can't even run his own life, I'll be damned if he runs mine"....Sunshine

Amen,PC

In a little defense to the $ grubbers, (LOL),....It's really not about safety w/big bro....Can't totally get my arms around it; It's mostly about power over others.

What am I missing here? Don't you want anyone that is working for you to be safe? You just don't want the responcibility of the safety? I know enough roofers from all corners. Damn you are a bunch. Good to bad, not referring to the work but the ethic. I guess $$$ play the game. :( PC

Haatchetman, I sub everything out because quite frankly, if I was the one pounding the shingles on, the quality WOULD CERTAINLY DEGRADE. I find it easy to demand quality because I won't pay if they job isn't perfect. I watch too.

I'm interested in your "partnering" arrangement. Can you elaborate on that?

Hatchet,

Stay the straight'n narrow. What I'm referring to is; Don't play the "miss-represemnting your employees, as subs game"....Glad to hear there's a few out there that actually play by the rules....We do likewise....We've been in biz since 83'.

To reiterate another; As the prime contractor, your still on the hook w/OSHA if one of your "subs" is nabbed.

What's all the hoopla anyway? We've been complying with this stuff for a couple of decades!(?)

I called our area osha inspector (yea I have his cell #; we installed his home roof 2 years ago) and asked him about the sub contracting thing. He did not want to go on record and give any info but he did give me the # to the reginal osha lawyers dept.

They told me as long as I was not incorperated; I am not covered by osha regs and if I "found work" for a legit roofing company made up of a few men that have formed a partnership and also not incorperated then they to would not be covered. The person said that if they had anyone on the job that was not an owner that person would be covered and the partners which I "found work" for would be responsable. The person used the words "found work for" at least five times in his explaination of this so Im thinking that this is important. Oh and they were quick to add that it could not be ruled out that I could recieve a citation also and then told me I should speak to a contract attorney to get all sub-contracting documented to cover my azz.

On another note I took delivery of roofing shingles from ABC SUPPLY yesterday and the driver said that they also have new regs to comply with starting june 16 also and he said the new rules will be way over the top in the name of safty; such as perimiter cones and ropes and flags and in some cases spotters and in some cases 2 spotters from ABC. BS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------H

Oh, and Profitable? What the hell does that have to do with anything. We are supposed to do this as a public service and at the same time, we are supposed to pay taxes, give to the local organizations and pay to charities. You certainly live in the past if you want to make a profit. Politically incorrect!

Good Luck guys it is getting tougher all the time. PC

There is no free lunch for sure. We are all in the same boat. Subs too. Either you will have to work by yourself, and have no money so they can;'t take anything from you, don't speak any English, or get a bunch of ropes and try to work. The OSHA people are going to fine everyone now no matter what. They have to because theat is how they get the money to stay in the business! Kind of like the cops handing out traffic tickets. Good luck with that one.

In my part of the country, I don't see the sub thing with roofers. Other parts of the county operate their company by hiring subs to do the work.

One problem to look out for....If you hire a sub and they get caught and fined, then you can be fined as well.

It is no different when you work for General Contractor "A" and Roofer "B" gets fined. They can simply fine contractor "A" as well by not ensuring Roofer "B" operating safely.