Stereotyping & Religion

I could not paste the whole thing at once Edward Gibbon was defended in his findings by his contemporary, the brilliant British scholar Richard Porson who also proceeded to publish devastatingly conclusive proof that the verse of 1 John 5:7 was only first inserted by the Church into the Bible in the year 400C.E.(Secrets of Mount Sinai, James Bentley, pp. 30-33).

Regarding Porson's most devastating proof, Mr. Gibbon later said

"His structures are founded in argument, enriched with learning, and enlivened with wit, and his adversary neither deserves nor finds any quarter at his hands. The evidence of the three heavenly witnesses would now be rejected in any court of justice; but prejudice is blind, authority is deaf, and our vulgar Bibles will ever be polluted by this spurious text."

To which Mr. Bentley responds:

"In fact, they are not. No modern Bible now contains the interpolation."

Mr. Bentley, however, is mistaken. Indeed, just as Mr. Gibbon had predicted, the simple fact that the most learned scholars of Christianity now unanimously recognize this verse to be a later interpolation of the Church has not prevented the preservation of this fabricated text in our modern Bibles. To this day, the Bible in the hands of the majority of Christians, the "King James" Bible, still unhesitantly includes this verse as the "inspired" word of God without so much as a footnote to inform the reader that all scholars of Christianity of note unanimously recognize it as a later fabrication.

Peake's Commentary on the Bible says

"The famous interpolation after 'three witnesses' is not printed even in RSVn, and rightly. It cites the heavenly testimony of the Father, the logos, and the Holy Spirit, but is never used in the early Trinitarian controversies. No respectable Greek MS contains it. Appearing first in a late 4th-cent. Latin text, it entered the Vulgate and finally the NT of Erasmus."

It was only the horrors of the great inquisitions which held back Sir Isaac Newton from openly revealing these facts to all:

"In all the vehement universal and lasting controversy about the Trinity in Jerome's time and both before and long enough after it, the text of the 'three in heaven' was never once thought of. It is now in everybody's mouth and accounted the main text for the business and would assuredly have been so too with them, had it been in their books… Let them make good sense of it who are able. For my part I can make none. If it be said that we are not to determine what is scripture and what not by our private judgments, I confess it in places not controverted, but in disputed places I love to take up with what I can best understand. It is the temper of the hot and superstitious part of mankind in matters of religion ever to be fond of mysteries, and for that reason to like best what they understand least. Such men may use the Apostle John as they please, but I have that honor for him as to believe that he wrote good sense and therefore take that to be his which is the best"

Jesus, Prophet of Islam, Muhammad Ata' Ur-Rahim, p. 156

According to Newton, this verse first appeared for in the third edition of Erasmus's (1466-1536) New Testament.

For all of the above reasons, we find that when thirty two biblical scholars backed by fifty cooperating Christian denominations got together to compile the Revised Standard Version of the Bible based upon the most ancient Biblical manuscripts available to them today, they made some very extensive changes. Among these changes was the unceremonious discardal of the verse of 1 John 5:7 as the fabricated insertion that it is. For more on the compilation of the RSV Bible, please read the preface of any modern copy of that Bible.

Such comparatively unimportant matters as the description of Jesus (pbuh) riding an ass (or was it a "colt", or was it an "ass and a colt"? see point 42 in the table of section 2.2) into Jerusalem are spoken about in great details since they are t

1.2.2.5 1 John 5:7

The only verses in the whole Bible that explicitly ties God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit in one "Triune" being is the verse of 1 John 5:7

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

This is the type of clear, decisive, and to-the-point verse I have been asking for. However, as I would later find out, this verse is now universally recognized as being a later "insertion" of the Church and all recent versions of the Bible, such as the Revised Standard Version the New Revised Standard Version, the New American Standard Bible, the New English Bible, the Phillips Modern English Bible ...etc. have all unceremoniously expunged this verse from their pages. Why is this? The scripture translator Benjamin Wilson gives the following explanation for this action in his "Emphatic Diaglott." Mr. Wilson says:

"This text concerning the heavenly witness is not contained in any Greek manuscript which was written earlier than the fifteenth century. It is not cited by any of the ecclesiastical writers; not by any of early Latin fathers even when the subjects upon which they treated would naturally have lead them to appeal to it's authority. It is therefore evidently spurious."

Others, such as the late Dr. Herbert W. Armstrong argued that this verse was added to the Latin Vulgate edition of the Bible during the heat of the controversy between Rome, Arius, and God's people. Whatever the reason, this verse is now universally recognized as an insertion and discarded. Since the Bible contains no verses validating a "Trinity" therefore, centuries after the departure of Jesus, God chose to inspire someone to insert this verse in order to clarify the true nature of God as being a "Trinity." Notice how mankind was being inspired as to how to "clarify" the Bible centuries after the departure of Jesus (pbuh). People continued to put words in the mouths of Jesus, his disciples, and even God himself with no reservations whatsoever. They were being "inspired" (see chapter two).

If these people were being "inspired" by God, I wondered, then why did they need to put these words into other people's mouths (in our example, in the mouth of John). Why did they not just openly say "God inspired me and I will add a chapter to the Bible in my name"? Also, why did God need to wait till after the departure of Jesus to "inspire" his "true" nature? Why not let Jesus (pbuh) say it himself?

The great luminary of Western literature, Mr. Edward Gibbon, explains the reason for the discardal of this verse from the pages of the Bible with the following words:

"Of all the manuscripts now extant, above fourscore in number, some of which are more than 1200 years old, the orthodox copies of the Vatican, of the Complutensian editors, of Robert Stephens are becoming invisible; and the two manuscripts of Dublin and Berlin are unworthy to form an exception...In the eleventh and twelfth centuries, the Bibles were corrected by LanFrank, Archbishop of Canterbury, and by Nicholas, a cardinal and librarian of the Roman church, secundum Ortodoxam fidem. Notwithstanding these corrections, the passage is still wanting in twenty-five Latin manuscripts, the oldest and fairest; two qualities seldom united, except in manuscripts....The three witnesses have been established in our Greek Testaments by the prudence of Erasmus; the honest bigotry of the Complutensian editors; the typographical fraud, or error, of Robert Stephens in the placing of a crotchet and the deliberate falsehood, or strange misapprehension, of Theodore Beza."

"Decline and fall of the Roman Empire," IV, Gibbon, p. 418.>>>

Pot Sez

If one is a Bible believer, one cannot refute the idea of 3 in the Godhead. as per: I John 5 7. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

This to me means that they agree as one mind, they all see and think just alike, but 3 different entities.>>>

Chuck sez: For what it is worth.. I was speaking of " The Three in One idea. that's all. totally incomprehensible. I am on the same page with The Father The Son The holy ghost spirit etc. That's all I know. As I was said before it is only words . I want to know how to be a better person . Talking about the trinity doesn't accomplish that.

I savvy :)>>>

I can assure you this, that the Trinity,if it is the same thing as the Godhead, is not made up. It is as real as me an you sitting at the pute discussing it,for me anyway.

If one is a Bible believer, one cannot refute the idea of 3 in the Godhead. as per: I John 5 7. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

John 14 26. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15 26. But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16 7. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Based on these scriptures , how can one say there is no Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit>>>

For what it is worth.. I was speaking of " The Three in One idea. that's all. totally incomprehensible. I am on the same page with The Father The Son The holy ghost spirit etc. That's all I know. As I was said before it is only words . I want to know how to be a better person . Talking about the trinity doesn't accomplish that.>>>

Chuck asks:

POT I can say then that you see the futile idea of a trinity and agree it is added by man ? I 'm sorry I didn't follow your post if that wasn't the intention . I guess with all this wrangling Solo Scriptura I always get the sense I'm missing out on what my real purpose is , It has been the letter of the law is dead . How can I love my neighbor as my self if I hold them to damnation . What is it I can do to shut the voice of resentment towards my fellow human being and the creation . This wrangling of Scripture is interesting for sure , it doesn't bring any life to me and creates only separation from Gods greatest commandment .

I'm not sure of what you deem as a trinity ,Chuck.

I believe in the Godhead, which consists of the Father(God) ,who sits on the Throne of Grace,overseeing all, the Son(Jesus), who sits at his right hand as our mediator and intersessor, and the Holy Spirit(Ghost), who has no formal name, but acts as a messenger for God and Jesus. I do not believe this was added by men in the mortal sense of the word. Col 2 8. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.>>>

Pot I figure the trinity for what ever reason was make up and is not what we have been taught. I come from a Catholic idea and some prominent protestants background. The Church in my estimation has sanitized the message of Jesus. The trinity is not what I want to base my life on. As I navigate through this life the message Jesus gave was this... We love by loving good people and by forbearing to hate wrongdoers. In this fashion, I can endear and complete myself to God. Resentment is the antithesis of love, in that it reinforces in the present the very same anger that established the aberrant behaviors of the past. Resentment is the loser's anger. I have struggled with resentment for a long time , It is there many times a day. the difference now is I'm very aware of it and know how to deal with it .Finally , Peace ....... through patient endurance I am forgiven as I forgive, just as the Lord's Prayer says. The secret is I must forgive first Truly becoming whole ( not right which has a pompas self righteous arrogant sense to it ) That is what is important to me .>>>

Copper sed: So given the fact that the trinity started long after Jesus died and the apostils were gone I would say the trinity is a false teaching Acts 20:29,30 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among YOU and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.

What do you consider the (Trinity)to be? I need to know to be able to give a proper responce.>>>

Chuck, I know that there is not much mention of the Holy Ghost in the Old Testament, but it is full of times when he was at work for the Lord. Here are a few verses of where he is implicated.

Gen 1 26. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: According to this verse , there was more than one present, I believe that the Holy Ghost was here as well as God and Jesus.

Mark 12 36. For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

In this verse the Prophet David is prophesying by the Holy Ghost or Spirit, to me they are one in the same.

Acts 1 16. Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

Once again David , speaking , moved by the Holy Ghost

Acts 7 51. Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

I believe that this is referring to the Old Testament fathers.

Acts 28 25. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

26. Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

Here Paul states Isaiah, the prophet of the Old, being moved by the Holy Ghost or Spirit.

II Pet 1 21. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost

To me this is self explanatory in itself.

>>>

I would like to contribute this much to the conversation.

There have been multiple agreements with my statement that it takes faith to wrap one's mind around the concept of the trinity. I realize that this was largely tongue-in-cheek, and find no offense it at all.

At the same time, it's probably safe to say that the four of us all believe that God created the universe. Are we not just as powerless to wrap our minds around the idea of creation, of speaking into existence the heavens themselves, by an infinite God. Yet we don't look for excuses, we just believe what we read, rather than trying to explain away the idea.

Temper my statement with the fact that I said, to me, the concept is clearly stated in many verses, a lot of which were reference previously, but are now gone.

Gotta go, it's 11:42, Sunday night, and I'm heading to the office after a full family day. God Bless all y'all. :)>>>

Hi copperman,

First let me say that I didn't see the offending part of your posts that Ciak saw.

With that said, I don't know how long I've been reading my bible with zeal. Probably not 30 years. Whatever that timeframe is, I've spent a lot of evenings not just sitting in study with like-minded people, but also Jehovah's Witnesses, Latter Day Saints, 7th Day Adventist, Catholics ( of which my mother was growing up), athiests ( a large part of my fathers extended family), and others. Quite honestly in pursuit of a greater understanding of what they believe in the hopes of comparing, observing, upholding or reshaping my own views.

We share more commonality than differences, yet have some great chasms on certain, and in some cases quite significant, issues. The issue of who/what/how Christ really is, in my own mind, being the absolute most significant.

I don't know that we serve any purpose if we argue doctrines on things like diety, multiple gods, works vs grace, etc. I will simply say that my biggest stumbling block when studying works of Charles Russell and later Watchtower publications, Joseph Smith and later Mormon teachings, or the many writings of Ellen White is the idea that the real keys to salvation were hidden from generations of Christ worshippers, followers, fans or whatever word may be suitable to the conversation, until their revelations were experienced. I know that's a gross oversimplification, used for the sake of brevity, not aggitation. I've said in the many words that were lost above, that I don't think scripture was meant to be difficult to comprehend and that we should be able to hear God's voice, intent, and plan quite plainly if we absorb ourselves in that Word. I don't think it needed special revelation to be relevant.And while I cannot diminish the importance of works in the life of a Christian, I view those works as an outward expression of an inward change that occurred in the soul of a true believer who's self was convicted by the holy law and was saved by the simple acceptance of His grace alone. When works don't follow, I question the reality of what a person may confess with their mouths. As Lefty likes to say "I can't hear a word he says, his actions are so loud"....(or something like that) Whereas works become a much more significant aspect of the later versions of what many consider christianity, in some cases to the point of actually enabling one to earn their way to heaven, as I'm sure you well know. Key differences to say the least.

As much as I would love to engage the conversation, as most that know my past posting history would easily recognize, I haven't had much in the way of forum time over the last month, and I don't see it changing any time soon. I almost didn't regenerate this thread because of the time limitations I had, but wanted to post the question on Isaiah 9:6 while it was fresh in my mind. Primarily I was aiming it at Pot because I felt that our own theologies were most closely aligned and I wanted to more clearly discern how we could see so much, so similarly, but be so different on this one issue.

I would find it, admittedly to my own fault, nearly impossible to debate this one issue with you when there are many other background issues shaping our views I consider critical to our own "Christ" picture.

Please, please believe me when I say that this isn't a cop-out, or offered in a derogatory fashion, but a sincere admission as to why it would just not be possible for me to rationally carry on a conversation that derserves more time than I can dedicate to it at the moment.

Respectfully, Mike

PS: Usually not at all concerned about being misunderstood, on issues of faith I am quite the oposite. Particularly since being proclaimed the "anti-christ" by Calroofer some years ago. Perhaps the only insult ever thrown at me that really drew blood. I haven't hit the "save reply" button for some 20 minutes now out of that simple fear of

POT I can say then that you see the futile idea of a trinity and agree it is added by man ? I 'm sorry I didn't follow your post if that wasn't the intention . I guess with all this wrangling Solo Scriptura I always get the sense I'm missing out on what my real purpose is , It has been the letter of the law is dead . How can I love my neighbor as my self if I hold them to damnation . What is it I can do to shut the voice of resentment towards my fellow human being and the creation . This wrangling of Scripture is interesting for sure , it doesn't bring any life to me and creates only separation from Gods greatest commandment .>>>

.....nite all....see ya tomoro :woohoo:>>>

Revelation 22 18 “I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; 19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.)

KJV

18. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I don't see anything missing from one to the other, just a different type of word , that seems to mean the same thing.

I also use an INTERLINEAR GREEK-ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT written by George Ricker Berry, printed by Zondervan. It gives a word for word tranlation in the original Greek wording order. I have found that the KJV gives a more precise word for word translation from the Greek than anything else that I have seen. At least according to Berrys Translation.>>>