some of my desert home pics test

I have always used cedar for battens with a few exceptions. Years ago, I did the first phase of a condo project where the specs called for treated battens. Unable to find any at a reasonable price, I treated them myself with preservative in my garage. When the next phase came up for bid, I was alot busier and bid enough higher that I didn't get the project. When the next guy started working, I noticed he wasn't using treated battens and asked him about it. He told me his battens were "weather treated, he put them out in the weather until he needed them."

As for underlayments, I doubt if there's been much tile put on in Europe without underlayments for at least 20 to 30 years. They might be spaced sheathing, but they use underlayments. Those without underlayments tend to have two things going for them. Plenty of pitch and straightforward rooflines.

I did an addition on my previous home in about '87 and used spaced sheathing and a European (BRAAS) underlayment, just as a test. While it saved all the plywood expense, it greatly increased the roofing labor and involved engineering decisions that would increase liability and I never pushed for doing it with customers. But it has never caused any problems.

I had worked with tile for 5 years before I ever enountered spaced sheathing without underlayment. It just wasn't something a sane person would want to do in SLC, Denver or Alberta climates. The first (and only) time I did a roof without unerlayment was for a barn that I was also doing the house (with underlayment). When I went up to the loft and noticed how much light was getting through the headlap when viewed at the right angle, I decided against ever doing it again.

Tile will keep out all rain in just about any conditions, but blowing powder snow will get through and require an underlayment. For most of this area, those conditions only occur maybe once a decade and even a basic 30 lb felt will last indefinitely with only getting wet that often. But we have an interesting microclimate here. Right at the mouth of the Columbia River Gorge is a hilltop area that has spectacular views, so they use alot of tile there. But in winter it gets a cold wind from the East side of the gorge that causes it to frequently drop just below freezing when it doesn't in the rest of the county. It's a real test area for the blowing snow resistance of tile, they occur several times per year. O'hagins vents in particular allow snow in up there.

egg....Indeed, a pet-peeve.....and your 3 cents is dead-on....However, with all due respect; I won't be doing any hand-wringing over the cpmpatibility of redwood, cedar, wolmanized wood, tree sap, felt, metal fasteners, as they've all been in contact for centuries with, (to my knowledge), no ill affects.

You won't get any flak from me Egg. When I have felt, I'll even use it. When I don't, I keep on roofing. If the weather reaches the felt, or I&W, you've lost and it's only a case of when' it shows up. But the leak is there. No 'if's'

To date I have always had an ample supply of redwood or cedar for batten stock. The corrosion issue is worth some investigation, not just for the effect on fasteners but for the effect on underlayments.

Speaking of underlayments, I have noticed over the years that TomB has brought the issue up at regular intervals and like some of my own topics that bring up intermittently, it qualifies as what the world would call a pet peeve. Read on before reacting. MikeNZ raised the same issue and supported it with photos on several occasions. He doesn't do tile, but is a reliable observer.

One could easily try to write this objection off as an "opinion" as if to say that is somehow less worthy than some quantifiable test analysis or industry standard set by committees of engineers, architects, etc. and it's true, it IS an opinion. But it is also a fact.

Wood shingle sidewall is (or always used to be...no telling what age-old observably-provable truth has been revised these days) considered a "decorative cladding." Hence it traditionally required underlayment to serve as waterproofing. Have we really fallen so low as to reach the point where traditional materials like tile and even composition shingles, are now to be considered decorative cladding?

It has been my experience that for tile (leaving Florida wind out of it and leaving ice damming and deep snow-loads out of it) the ONLY things that compromise the mechanical waterproofing of a normal system are 1) build up of debris, 2) improper lay-out, 3) protection of hips and ridges. They work just fine without underlayment.

So much for what the French call "mechanical tile" which involves the interlocking sidelaps and battens. It is my personal opinion that two-piece mission tile does require underlayment to give security although I have wired it down to open structures where there are no contents below that are too precious to get wet and it has worked fine. The problem with those tiles are mainly that pans break under foot traffic, very easily and not always detectably.

Tile should never be considered merely decorative cladding and underlayment should never be considered to be more than a secondary line of defense. That's my three cents.

CIAK; Never had that one come up, (and I've heard just about everything, when it comes to tile roof assemblies),....I'm not privy to any issues...One might assume that would be a primary consideration, as the very attachment involves metal fasteners....But, ya know what they say about "assume"....

Egg or anyone else, I was curious about chemical preservatives . Are the chemicals used in battens corrosive? Does this affect the type of wire or nails you use? Copper and or stainless steel?

B) :) :) B) Deep Down In Florida Where The Sun Shines Damn Near Every Day

I believe underlayments in general became a catch-all...magic bullet, (so-to-speak), for inferior design & construction methods/workmanship.

I'm reflecting now on a complete tract of homes in Calif. that were built probably in the late 60's?....Tile over spaced sheathing...We were party to re-roofing many of them ourselves...The standard practice was to get rid of that darned ol' tile; Sheet over the spaced sheathing and put comp on it....Boy, that was a real upgrade!(NOT!).

The problem was; Although the tile was a viable product, the specifyer(s) and installers failed to complete the system as intended...They thought they could just throw tile on spaced sheathing w/o like, (Eruo) details...Only due to the the temperate climate, the roofs performed, as well as they did.

Today, in "snow country"...Ice & Water Shield is the standared practice...Stick that stuff everywhere....Put two layers on! That'll fix'er...So it goes....

Unless things have changed, we, (US), are probably the only ones that typically use plywd & depend so much on the underlayment, rather than effective tile placing.

Most other places, (UK/Eruope, "down-under", etc....), The roofer would generally take the roof from the rafter stack stage...Roofer installs horizontal 1x, (battens as we refer to them),at the appropriate spacing to accomdate the tile exposure. Also, cuts rakes/eaves so as to "fit" trim tiles....Sometimes tiles themselves are built with opening for vent pipes, elliminationg sheet metal pipe jacks....Field tiles with built-in snow stops as well.

I did run across a method used in UK of draping "sarking"(sp?) over rafters, prior to 1x battens.

The previous home we built,(1999); Elev. 7400, lots of snow...multi-day sub-zero conditions....Typically get at least one 36" storm a yr...sometimes 3 or more....Flat concrete tile...3/12 to 12/12 pitches....No ice & water...I only put one 30# on because the local bldg. dept. had a fit that I wasn't going to use any underlayment.

I built an out buiding a couple of years later....flat conc. tile....1x6 at 13.25" spacing, right over the rafters.....No solid sheathing...No underlayment what-so-ever....Never a problem.

That's not to say underlayment is never needed...That's just what happens when a project is truly thought-out/designed, prior to construction. These days an architect draws a house.....a GC builds it and band-aides it up to withstand the elements, (i.e., ice & water sheild and the like).

I'll stop there....Didn't want to get too carried away.... :cheer:

eggs attachment method is a traditional tried and true method. Requires a great degree of labor and craftsman technique that only a very few and rare individual posses. A relative, design engineer contractor in Italy has sent me a DVD of a middle ages ( 1400- 1500) church remodel update. Copper zinc or iron nails and mortar with horse hair was the application method. Pan tiles were not the most water resistant. There are no roof boards only battens. Interesting. B) :) :) B) Deep Down In Florida Where The Sun Shines Damn Near Every Day

Are they still hot-mopping BUR under steep tile roofs in Florida? I thought that was the standard, (years ago, anyway)...They'd use cotton mops, so as to just toss when they were finished. Wouldn't like my guys on a 6 or 7/12 doing hot! Steepest BUR every did was a 4/12 under a cast-in-place concrete roof...Coincidently, that was for a guy from Florida, who just had to have that particular roof. He had a crew come out to Calif. from Florida w/forms & such to install concrete roof.

I hear ya Wy....Sometimes you've just got to "Do as the Romans..." Same here; They don't know what it is and refuse to use "Z-bar"...It's typically burried...Only when we're involved at the design stage or working with a not-so-ignorant GC, are appropriate counter flashing details utilized.

I'm all for giving the customer all the underlayment he's willing to pay for. I no longer am insured for torching, so that's no longer one of my upgrades. Even when I was using torchdown as an upgrade I never went to three plys unless it was 3/12 or less. I've never had any problems with the 2 ply so I have to say even for an upgrade 3 ply is overkill. But I can respect that.

I've lost about as many jobs argueing against overkill as I've gotten trying to save the customer money by not going overkill. So now, I just figure it both ways. Look willing to do whatever level spec they want.

Rocky, I'm still trying to picture the turret stone detail. Does the stone come up from the lower level continuosly to above the roof? Or does it stop at the overhang framing and start above the roof sheeting?

EGG, nice copper work. The thing that enables you guys in CA and AZ to do things like that is you use the z bar as an isolation connection between the stucco/siders and the roof flashing. That allows you to do do elaborate details like that as the tile goes down. Up here, they just lap over the roofing flashing, so the roof flashing has to be in place before the stucco goes on. So you would have to do a dry lay mockup, flash the wall and unlay the tile. Then you have to trust the stucco crew not to put a foot or knee down on your unsupported copper (virtualy impossible). So yeah I'm kind of amazed to see that can be done.

Rocky; Your correct on the Florida polyurethane attachment....Copper isn't sht mtl?....I was mostly eluding to the underlayment, as is the typical mindset of us Yanks...Underlayment dependent, rather than correct primary roof material installment,(the tile, slate, what-have-you)....I've specified, designed, installed all types of tile roofs for the past 28+ years. Don't claim to know it all. The "Yank" referrence came from a comment I received from a contractor in the UK, some 15+ yrs ago, while researching tile installation & snow retention in Europe. He had made the comment how us "Yanks" cheapen everything up and then wonder why it fails....Install the tile as intended..after all, That's where it came from! It's worked for cenruries over there.

Rockydog, I am with Tom on the concept of a solid base under the rock with no possibility of flushing underneath, but If I understand correctly, one would still be able to get back underneath the rock with some patience (once the tiles were separated from the membrane) should that need ever come to pass, for whatever reason. Interesting discussion.

I assume if one had to crawl across a finished section anchored by foam, the tiles would hardly move around at all. Is that right?

By the way, that pile of parts wasn't scuppers. They go in places like this:

(The Grace I&W was not my deal. I only use Grace Ultra with tile when there is a need for it. I choose my battles and this spot wasn't worth a fight.

Anyone who has experienced the bad adhesion of a mortar set tile roof will understand why Poly foam adhesive is superior. It has not proven adhesion for longevity in real time.Over 20yrs Much to hope for. It is the application on the coastal sides of Florida. It is a promising product. B) :) :) B) Deep Down In Florida Where The Sun Shines Damn Near Every Day