regional piece work rate survey

Just checking around the country/comparing current asphalt shingling piece work labor rates. (Now remember; These are direct labor rates....NOT the suedo-sub crap)

Sample/control roof; 5/12 2-story....Existing; 3-tab.

Demo/dry-in; Tear-off, drip edge, 72" ice and water at eaves & 36" at valleys; Synthetic underlay balance.

Shingle: 50yr/Lifetime dimensionals

What's the going rates in your neck-o-the-woods?

Colorado Mtns. $30/sq. to demo/dry-in....$25/sq. to shingle High desert, California, $25/sq. demo/dry-in....$18/sq to shingle.

(Note; Generally, the guys in Calif are half again faster than the typical shinglers in Co....So, even though the pc rate is lower in Ca., they generally make a lot more money) Also; The guys in Colo. are completely spoiled; A lot of the roofing contractors provide all the tools, while in Calif. the piece workers are expected to provide thier own.

What's the going rates in your neck-O-the-woods?

Thanks in advance for the survey participation

Well, Tom, I imagine we have a bit in common. I would imagine that we have a middling amount of #1, a small amount of #3, and virtually none of #2. Therefore I conclude that against a great current running against us we have accomplished quite a lot. Nothing to brag about, mind you, but I've noticed that bragging is a lot like getting drunk. Not much of value in it. At least we own the ladders. At least we can stop, look around, and think. I think life is its own reward and we have a lot to be grateful for. Stupid will always be there. We just have to do everything humanly possible to work with it or to get around it. It's the human condition. It's definitely not going away any time soon. Here's to the good fight going forward...

And egg........I climb up my 24' ladder. STOP. Think. Look around. Think.

What I have. What I have accomplished. How far have I gone down the road of accepting stupid and buying into consumerist values, which require THREE things only:

1) money (or credit) 2) STOP thinking..........(let someone else do that for ya) 3) Give up control.......(follows STOP thinking)

I honestly don't know who Big Brother is anymore. Part "Daddy" and part jailor I would imagine. I used to think I knew. Part of the human mind probably, likely originating in the brain stem that controls "fight or flight" impulses. I have observed that what you could call the arms and legs of Big Brother go home at night, get all confused and frustrated at times, get angry and kick the dog, make grammatical mistakes, and I assume they try like hell to justify their actions. Big Brother can't keep it all together but tries to pretend that it can. Big Brother can't balance the checkbook or the promises. Big Brother has never really made viable decisions about relative values Big Brother can't get a grip on his population explosion that is now eating the world alive. Big Brother woke up one morning and looked in the mirror and saw a lemming. No wonder he kicks the dog.

Wy; Kinda like the illegal workforce, eh? Big Bro walks different than it talks :( :silly:

You're right about the cash in the West, EGG. A couple of months ago I gave a bid to a guy that had already told me the names of the two other bidders he had over. Trying to get me to lower my price the guy says "I guess all you guys like to be paid in cash." I found that to be somewhat insulting, but very surprising. While one of the bidders he had mentioned, it might have been expected, the other guy has been in leadership of several National roof-related organizations. They also have a pretty large staff that I would think would have to be in on knowing they take cash.

There's a large painting company around here that I hear is all cash. Their 3 houses and shops are in a compound off of a busy road, so I often see the place and there're lots of boats, motor homes, toys around. And usually 20 t0 30 employee vehicles. How you could possibly keep it secret is beyond me. Every disgruntled employee could turn you in or even someone one of your employees talked to (which is how I know about it). But they're still there.

TomB-----1/2 The public thinks that this ain't even a business. Any untrained monkey can do this. We ain't worth a dime over that no good friggin' minimum wage.

Problem ain't the 50% of the public who believes that......it is the 75% of the contractors that do

Egg; Encouraging words....However, I dunno....I was thumbing through some old publicized articles/letters I wrote, (in 1992), when I first arrived here in Colorado....Nothing's changed....The "sub-game" & employing of illegals is just as rampant....I maintained membership in the local roofing contrractor's accoc. until I couldn'r stand it any longer; Felt like I was stepping into a cess-pool everytime I attended a meeting....

Out in the west, the big cheat has always been CASH. Then there were the guys years ago who would have their guys give them fake invoices for "materials." Then there have always been guys who hope their 1099's will escape notice. Cocktails of all three. Half-time, overtime. Hours based on piece. 2% shareholders in corporations. All of the ways around the system have been effectively closed off, though people still try. I assume they still try. Everything needs to be documented if you plan to push any envelope. No fun looking over your shoulder all the time imo. Treat people fairly. Demand to be treated fairly in return. Any funny business you just pull the plug and move on. Like renters and insurance scammers, a lot of people now know how to cheat the employer. Pendulum is going to swing back any time now because the system is breaking down on a wholesale scale.

Robby & Lanny.... Exactly. What's curious is that the 'sub-game" isn't played-out in the west...However, is more common than not once you cross the continental divide....Another curious corelation, is state licensing; i.e., Californis, Nevada, Arizona, Utah, Oregon, Washington, New Mexico all have state licensing & the "sub-game" is unheard of to my knowledge. Please enlighten me if I'm mistaken.

Here is some info. off the Washington state webpage:

RCW 51.08.195 "Employer" and "worker" -- Additional exception. As an exception to the definition of "employer" under RCW 51.08.070 and the definition of "worker" under RCW 51.08.180, services performed by an individual for remuneration shall not constitute employment subject to this title if it is shown that:

(1) The individual has been and will continue to be free from control or direction over the performance of the service, both under the contract of service and in fact; and

(2) The service is either outside the usual course of business for which the service is performed, or the service is performed outside all of the places of business of the enterprise for which the service is performed, or the individual is responsible, both under the contract and in fact, for the costs of the principal place of business from which the service is performed; and

(3) The individual is customarily engaged in an independently established trade, occupation, profession, or business, of the same nature as that involved in the contract of service, or the individual has a principal place of business for the business the individual is conducting that is eligible for a business deduction for federal income tax purposes; and

(4) On the effective date of the contract of service, the individual is responsible for filing at the next applicable filing period, both under the contract of service and in fact, a schedule of expenses with the internal revenue service for the type of business the individual is conducting; and

(5) On the effective date of the contract of service, or within a reasonable period after the effective date of the contract, the individual has established an account with the department of revenue, and other state agencies as required by the particular case, for the business the individual is conducting for the payment of all state taxes normally paid by employers and businesses and has registered for and received a unified business identifier number from the state of Washington; and

(6) On the effective date of the contract of service, the individual is maintaining a separate set of books or records that reflect all items of income and expenses of the business which the individual is conducting.

---I just got an audit letter from the Dept. of L & I myself. If I was running an operation like that mentioned by Twill I would be nailed to the wall. Lanny

Robby says, So, you might as well bid your own contracts and do the work yourself." ---That is true if you are subbing out work that YOU DO. However, the purpose of subs is to hire contractors that do work you DON'T DO. ---I am a roofer. But I sub the gutter work because I do not have a nifty continuous gutter machine. I work for general contractors who sub out the roofing work to me because their carpenters don't do roofing. Lanny

Twill... ---That is illegal and a violation of IRS worker classification. ---If they get audited they will owe the IRS LITERALLY 100's of thousands of dollars. All back taxes, penalties, interest and it piles up fast. ---There are state rules. There are federal rules. ---From the IRS webpage..."It is critical that you, the employer, correctly determine whether the individuals providing services are employees or independent contractors. Generally, you must withhold income taxes, withhold and pay Social Security and Medicare taxes, and pay unemployment tax on wages paid to an employee. You do not generally have to withhold or pay any taxes on payments to independent contractors." ---Just google "IRS worker classification" for lots of info. and definitions. ---His workers owe the IRS 15.3% of all their wages for self employed social security payments. I doubt they are paying that...Then, if not, they are cheating themselves out of future SS income. ---All he needs is one worker to file a complaint and the whole scam will blow up. Believe me he will owe hundreds of thousands. ---That is one reason why I will never operate that way. You can get away with it for years and then get audited and lose everything you have worked for your entire lifetime. Remember...with the IRS you are guilty until proven innocent. That can be hard to prove. ---By the way, those workers you have described are EMPLOYEES and that is not even debatable. To be "independant" contractors they must work for others, provide bids, etc, etc...that is, operate "independantly." Otherwise they are not. ---I have some friends that made all their employees officers of the corporation. They were mostly VP's, one was secretary, etc to try and get around the rules. The idea was to make them all "owners" etc. Well, it did not fly. It was obvious in an audit that HE was making all the profit from the corp. while his "officers" were being paid as employees. You just cannot hide the papertrail of the moneystream. The money tells the story and it told the audit team he was using a scam. Bottom line he had to pay ALL the back taxes, and more. ---This is so old news and so many companies have been busted for this I am suprised people are still running this scam. Lanny

What Lanny was trying to say is that the roofing industry in our in our state (washington)does not play the sub game like in others. A roofing contractor here does not contract another contractor with out showing proof they are legal.

So, you might as well bid your own contracts and do the work yourself.

I know of contractors who have payed cash to the workers an a weekly basis and then get real studid and 1099 their employee at the end of the year. Illegal as hell and can be a nightmare for the contractor if the employee ratted him out.

Nightmare meaning.....An audit and a judgement to pay potential lost state revenue for "state taxes, L & I, and so on."

As far as the subs are concerned....you might see a roofing management/water-proofing firm hiring a roofing contractor to do the roof work or a roofing contractor hiring a gutter co. to do the gutters.

What planet did you say you were from lanny? What I mean, WHICH government from WHAT country are you talking about here?

Not to simply be a smartazz, but the guy who is EATING up the majority of the work 'round here, cheats on every single one of those counts and has been for over 20 yrs. I assume that "Kurt" also schedules their start times

His "subs" drive his trucks, wear his shirts, use his ladders and tools. I live in America fyi. Just curious 'bout you, 'cause we seem to be worlds apart.....

---In our state the requirements for being a sub-contractor are very specific. And the federal requirements are also very clear. You cannot 1099 someone who is an employee. ---A sub-contractor is a contractor in his own right. He is licensed, bonded, insured, works at his own schedule, provides his own materials, has his own employees, pays his own employees, pays workman's comp, pays employment security, has an IRS account, works for more than one contractor, operates his own shop or place of business, and more, etc... ---If you provide for the contractor he may be designated an employee. If he comes to your place of business, starts when you direct, does the job as you direct, he may be designated as an employee. If he works piecework or by the hour he most likely will be classified as an employee. ---There are many "tests" that classify workers as employees or contractors. Contractors act independant employees take direction. ---You can call workers anything you want but when an audit occurs the facts will decide the issue. And the gooberment goes by the facts and they are quite legalistic. ---This classification debate has been going on for decades and the gov't is wise to all the illegal scams employers use to mis-classify workers to save $$$. ---Now I am a legitimate contractor and sub-contractor when I work for other contractors. However, they require proof from me so they don't get stuck when audited with all kinds of penalties for not paying all the necessary $$$. I have to provide them with a certificate of insurance and current contractor registration.

Lanny