Pimps who don't know how to roof.....

There is nothing that drives me crazier than a pimp who has no idea how to install a roof.

I have a friend who is a framer and the last few years his work has gotten slow. He has slowly ventured into doing other things that quite honestly, he is not qualified to do. Since his buddies live in a small town that recently got storm damage, he decided to become a roofing contractor. He has no idea how to roof. He calls me up and says he has some roofs to do and is wanting me to get with him and go over some of the insurance adjustments...my ponder begins there.

I don't want to hurt my friends feelings....but I am not real thrilled about being associated with a contractor that I know has no idea what he is doing. If he wants me to install his roofs that is fine, with my crews and time....but I don't think I want to be out on the roof training his $18 an hour guys on how to roof and him making more than I do.

I mean if they are a reputable contractor that has paid the dues, and know how to install a quality product...I have no problem putting my name on the install. But if the guy is a butcher and pawns junk to the customers and I am left to install it and look like the fool, I am not game. There are too many "roofing contractors today that don't know which side of shingle goes up"....

How do you guys handle the hack pimps that want you to sub?

I have found most all "home Builders" are pimps....A lot of GC's are, as well....

I had a nail issue yesterday 2 lanny. 3rd blow-off in 10 yrs or so. Indepenedence shingles, w --1 1/4" nails. All that they use! And all that they ever needed to know!

no leaks, they did all the flashing ok. Looks piss poor, but it works. Overhangs were cut all ragged, as are almost everyones here anyway.

Underventilated just like 90% ( or more!) of all homes built by more highly skilled trades, more knowledgable builders and designed by architects who are much less stuck up than the average snooty roofer.

---Got a roof call this morning from a roofing contractor I know. They had a problem. They were going to install 3-tab over 1/2" AC plywood and didn't want to damage the overhangs. So I met them at my shop and provided some 3/4" coil nails which they do not have. They always use 1 1/4" and install 99% laminate shingles. ---I said, that I had some 3/4" hand nails as well that driven by hand would not poke through. They did not like the idea of "driven by hand." So I showed them an AJC hammer and showed them how to use it. That was like speaking a foreign language. Hand nailing is too hard. I said you only have to do the overhangs!!! Have one guy roof up about 4 or 5 courses and the rake while another guy applies the runs. Then have the hand nailer roof the other rake. ---They know HOW to roof. Lanny

twill59 Said: Jim----I got to ask....but besides banging on shingles----

Do you have even near a clue what roofing is?

No, I'm sure you are the only one that knows and maybe two more of you in here. I haven't joined that elite club yet. I need another fifty years in the trades.

Y'all might think of pulling your noses out of the air once in a while.

Jim----I got to ask....but besides banging on shingles----

Do you have even near a clue what roofing is?

Some I attempt to teach. Those, I also tell them to price acordingly. Others, I send to clients that are looking for the cheapest price, period.

It was mentioned earlier that the carpenter's union split with the roofers union. I guess that was an attempt to prove that roofers are not carpenters.

I went through the union carpenter apprentice program. I was taught a very broad variety of skills, including book learning and hands on training. I don't remember if any particular roofing was part of the program but it wouldn't surprise me. I had classes in skills such as tile laying, welding, drafting, concrete etc. Yes, there were many apprentices that grumped "why do we need to know these things?". There were a few of us that just learned it.

What was the point of teaching us all those things since all we were were "nailbangers"? Well, I found out that with the proper attitude, I could learn and accomplish anything. Roofing falls into that category.

Does that mean I can fabricate a complicated piece of flashing as good as someone who has been doing it for 30 years? Of course not, but it does mean that I know the difference between a fine piece of craftmanship and crappola. I use those skills today to judge the competency of my subcontractors.

In any case, I'll stand by my original point that instead of sneering at "friends" who seek help, it is far smarter, in the long run, to mentor them.

Andy, 90% of the roofs I measure have a shingle turned upside down as the starter. Never once have I been frosted because of it. In fact, I LIKE TO FIND SITUATIONS LIKE THIS! To you guys, you see a problem. To me, I see an opportunity.

Maybe roofers are a more cynical bunch. I spent a lifetime out in the field and I never failed to have a friendly exchange of ideas with my competing carpenters. I've even invited them to work on the crew with me to learn new things. I just took a phone conversation with a fellow that I met back in 1988 who wandered onto my jobsite to learn how to frame for a masonry fireplace. I was amazed that the guy was contracting a massive custom home but didn't know how to frame for a hearth. He had the intelligence to seek answers to get it correct before he ruined it. He is, and was, a very competent carpenter and yes, he could roof too.

The point is that we are all in the construction industry and just because someone wasn't born with a roofing hatchet in their hand doesn't mean they cant get on a roof and learn how to install one. Go back and look to see if there has been any threads where a newbie roofer has been welcomed and encouraged to learn and ply their newly chosen craft. I don't think you'll find many. If you do find some, you'll also find the ratio of cynical criticisms to be far greater than friendly encouragement.

Anyways, I haven't read a wrapper in more than a few years and I'm not sure if it shows a starter strip or some other method. I prefer the starter strip and stress the importance in my sales presentation.

Sorry, Jim, I'm in twill and Randy's camp on this one.

April was really wet here in West Michigan, and we stayed really busy responding to service calls, troubleshooting hack work for leaks.

Jim, you are absolutely correct that just about anyone can install a roof . . . shoot, by your definition, just about anyone ought to be able to do brain surgery. Just read the instructions, crank up the DaVinci Robot, and have at it. (One of my ex-employees is now an MD who is qualified for robotic surgery, so this is a qualified roofing technician who now does surgery . . . . kinda scary, no?)

After observing the absolute complete waste of man hours, material and money for want of competence in the most elementary flashing details on these hack jobs, I have no patience or forgiveness for those individuals who hold themselves out to the public as professionals, when in fact they are charging their customers to learn the very trade they profess to know.

A wiser man than myself (my father) has often said, "Carpenters are not roofers, and roofers are not carpenters." Want proof? Every time I see a recently installed 3 tab shingle roof, with the first course a full shingle turned upside down for the starter course. Hmmm . . . . now how does that 1st course seal? Usually installed by a "carpenter" or there's a "carpenter" lurking on the sidelines, advising a relative or friend how to install that roof. Oh, and no (absolutely none) underlayment of any kind. ("Homeowners should know to replace the roof before it begins leaking")

Oh, yeah, any one can install shingles . . . and I get paid well to fix those roofs, usually within the first year.

There's not much I get cranked up about at age 58, but wasted resources due to incompetence really frosts me.

Hard learned lessons due to mistakes?!?!? Who bears the cost??? Homeowners with water stained ceilings?? There's a cost beyond returning to the job to figure out what went wrong and making the correction. What about the homeowner's lost confidence in the contractor? Or for that matter, in the trade?

After the failures in workmanship that we witnessed this spring, I remain convinced of the value of the service we bring to the residential roofing market. We eagerly anticipate working for those customers who value trade competence and a roof system that will go the distance.

Does not shock me, except: The Carpenters & Roofers Union split over 125 yrs. ago and....... very few carpenters, as Randy stated, know the upside from a downside of a shingle. Oh wait, I forgot, if you can roof doghouse, then you have mastered the trade. Ventilation? Flashing? Plywood installation? Sorry but if it ain't a 2x, most are pretty worthless.

Don't worry about me Jim. I am the oddest American out there. I actually have respect for everyone's job/ trade/task. I either live in the wrong time or the wrong country.

Problem w/ the realities of the labor burden: Only 10-20% even go there............

I think that you have it upside down on the bitching Jim:

I once had the pathetic HACK Hardware store owner/ contractor ask me about what a rubber roof costs. I told him. 2 weeks later he is on a job I spec'd, priced and bid. Wanna see some pics of his work? I'll bet my pricing info made him a PRO :woohoo: (how 'bout some pics of the trim blowing off his store? He must be too busy wrecking the local roofing market to take the time to fix his own building. Oh wait---he does not know how!)

Lost another nice $13k LM Plus job recently to a framer. 1099's his "employees". Wonderful. Not 10 cents worth of roofing insurance either.

No my plan is NOT to complain. My plan is not to be put into the position so I have nothing left to do BUT complain.

Do not throw your pearls before swine.

I like the idea of schooling the newbie on the realities of pricing. It makes a whole lot more sense to get him to understand the realities of the labor burden rather than just doing the "pimp" talk and letting him become cut rate contractor #345 that you have to contend with.

Yes, Twill, there are carpenters out there. This might come as a shock to you but if you are roofing, you are a carpenter.

If you guys ever wonder why this forum is so slow, you might want to look at the tone of most of your posts. Y'all seem to be very condescending to anyone that seeks help in the roofing trade. I actually thought forums were the place to exchange ideas with people with the same interests but I think most of you guys missed that class. I think you all took the "lets bitch about anyone that ever wants to get into the roofing industry" class too many times.

RandyB1986 Said: LOL Twill....you had me a laughing!

It is kind of funny my framing buddy hates being called a framer, he says he is a carpenter. I tell him it is just wood.....any monkey can build that!

Carpenter? .....are there any of those left?

Jim Says: "So, he calls you for help and you snidely look down your nose. Instead of guiding him, you ridicule him?"

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I can't help but think about everytime I've been ridiculed by a builder or a framer because my prices are LEGIT and I don't cheat.

It is ALL Ridicule Mr. Jim. Maybe people only recognize it when they recieve it :dry:

LOL Twill....you had me a laughing!

It is kind of funny my framing buddy hates being called a framer, he says he is a carpenter. I tell him it is just wood.....any monkey can build that!

OK OK.maybe I am wrong. Be nice Randy, don't spoil your friendship.

Give him this guidance: The way to price is this is to use the GOING RATE.

This might get you off the hook, since of course he will know exactly what the "going rate" is . And since he won't be paying for proper insurance and with a slam bang crew of "shinglers" he won't be making any investments in equipment, or have to bother w/ anything more than reading the label on the package ( LIFETIME Warranty! Mr. Homeowner) he should do fine money wise. Problem solved, friendship saved.

Like Jim sez, any untrained monkey can do what we do. Don't get shook about it. The real talent in this world seems to involve using other people's skills, not developing your own.

Also Randy you will be gaining a whole new level of respect as a "Professional Roofer" because you can string these 4 words together in a sentence: GOING RATE SQUARES DOLLARS. Does "Expert" in your title sound appealing to you? Soon you will be invited to the best parties in town and you will be DA MAN to talk to! The most successful business people and most beautiful ladies will vie for your attention!

Oh by the way Randy.........what are your skills worth to you? B)