Photo of the month pics -

Actually PC, if you offer the ropes to employees and they refuse, it's still on you, not them. As an owner, I'm exempt, but I use ropes about 20% of the time, everytime I feel a real need. If I didn't have the ropes and attachment brackets already on for employees, I probably would rationalize and talk myself out of using them as much as I do.

Human life is cheap! It seems that it used to be much cheaper. I guess it depends on where you live or work. It was not all that long ago that on the larger jobs, you could almost figure that there would be a certain number of deaths per 100 million dollars of construction costs. I am sure it still the truth, but it is not so loosely thrown about now. Is it moral? No, but it is the truth.

Do we take risks? Absolutely! Can we reduce those risks? Absolutely! How much are we willing to spend to reduce the risks? That is the question. Everyone struggles to answer that question, and if one is to carry the proper insurance, and make THEM ultimately responsible for the risks, then it will be they that determine how much we should spend.

Safety programs are part of it, training is part of it, PPE'S are part of it, common sense should be a large part of it. OSHA was a direct result of too little "common sense" The older I get, the more I understand how little "common sense" I had when I was younger. At 21 I was bullet proof. If all of you make it to 58, you will better understand what I am talking about. Don't just assume that you will be safe and that everyone else will work and act safe too. If they make a mistake and fall and take you with them, you both will get hurt; or killed.

The more complicated the job, the more expensive the safety precautions will be. A 4/12 walker one story building is a lot different than a 2 - 3 story 12/12 pitch roof, and perhaps different precautions are in order. It also makes a difference if you have other people working beneath you. One size doesn't fit all!

Listen Brandon 0805 At least offer the safety to your boys, they refuse .... that's on them. My reference to monkeys was just that. Up the road from my office I observed this guy jumping around the roof 3 stories high. Not a fear in the world. My first thought was what a "monkey" . I later found out it was one of my boys. I gave him hell. But he was good to go. Nothing to him but cringes to me. Do what you gotta do. I think it will come around and bite you in the ass. Welcome PC

Is morality just cost based OS ? I'm not trying to pick a fight with you OS. I ask the question to our roofing community as a whole. The potential of injury and or fatality. Do we then proceed by reducing the debate to economic issues? Certainly, when faced with claims for compensation and loss of life and/or limb, courts do make evaluations in monetary terms. This is a given fact. Can these be used to determine what our roofing community would consider an acceptable cut off point in terms of safety? Is there a fundamental difference between(after the fact)post facto compensation resulting from an accident, and a deliberate decision not to enhance safety because the cost is greater than the perceived benefits? B) :) :) B) Deep Down In Florida Where The Sun Shines Damn Near Every Day

You can never eliminate all of the risks associated with life. There is no totally safe way to perform work. You have to calculate what the potential risks are and decide how much you want to put yourself at risk for what amount of money or reward. On some things, there is no margin for error or mistakes.

For instance, what would you say to someone that worked in a nursery that said that they only dropped one out of 10,000 babies on the floor? How often should your parachute open correctly if you are a skydiver? If only 1 out of every 10 of your employees suffered a broken limb from falling every year and only 1 out of 100 have ever gotten killed on your jobs, is that acceptable? What are the limits we are willing to work with, and how much are we willing to pay to cut that number down? If one pays WC insurance, that is considered when you are applying for it. If you have too many lost itme accidents, or God Forbid deaths, your insurance will become imposible to pay and you will go out of business. All of us will however continue to pay for your ommisions in higher premiums. It is for that reason that I always am RREQUIRED to say something when I see a pratice like that. It is going to cost me in raised premiums sooner than later and it effects all of us, sooner or later.

I am not saying this to pick a fight with anyone, or to accuse anyone. On the same token, I really don't give a damn if it offends you. If the shoe fits, wear it!

Great post guys. Like the poetry egg. Started me thinking of the ethics, morality of safety. All of our issues in life are value based. Morality & ethics play huge roles in business and our personal lives. The question I see with these photo's ,.. Is it ever justified to accept safety process on economic grounds? Or is there an absolute moral obligation on operators to improve safety whatever the cost? When the safety hazards involve potential injury even possible fatalities then the nature of the question changes fundamentally. A whole new moral and ethical dimension comes into the equation. This is a great subject. Roofing where injury is inevitable and near fatal injury possible.

B) :) :) B) Deep Down In Florida Where The Sun Shines Damn Near Every Day

I've done a few barns, but the client was very concerned about dropping nails or fasteners in to the barn because they didn't want the cattle to eat the nails wich would cause a medical problem .... Think about it?

When you are driving, accidents happen too. Some people have a lot of them, and some people never have any. Is that an accident? I believe that a lot of it has to do with defensive driving, in that they look for potential accidents before they happen and try to avoid those possibilities. They also give themselves a chance to avoid them.

Race car drivers on the other hand are always on the rasors edge. If you are going to push the limits on a roof, you will have more accidents, and people are going to get hurt and killed. Scaffolding, safety glasses, hard hats, gloves and other PPE's are just forms of "defensive driving" as it were. EVERY "accident" has a cause, and if you can eliminate or cut down on those causes, you will live longer to tell about it. That is the kind of "common sense" I want to see. I don't see it in those pictures!

I agree it is indispensable, but common sense includes reading carefully.

Man that roof is nothing, ropes,scissorlifts, etc etc, ya right what a joke, it all boils down to COMMON SENSE..period,and if that roof was "200' " up, well duh I would wear a rope, hense, COMMON SENSE, I've seen more guys wipe out because of ropes,and also there's a thing called ACCIDENTS,cant avoid them they happen, and i've seen guys with or without ropes have them, so if your going to roof,get some damn COMMON SENSE!! JMO rant rant

Ropes are more dangerous for sure. On the other hand, it that was 200 feet in the air, I would bet that they would insist on having either a rope or scaffold for safety. 200 feet or 20 feet, head first it is death. What is the difference? I would stick with scaffold and a skytrack. Act like a big contractor and live to work another day.

Great post as usual by egg. "Ropes are for working very very slowly, hanging yourself, or for towing things." :laugh: We usually use ropes on anything 2 stories or more, but really it's a case by case basis. Some contractors require us to tie off on all jobs, many times they make the job more dangerous.

I'll third Mike's second of Woody's statement about that first pic.

I'm sure by present standards (especially as of this year's changes) I am not pol. correct but I would have set 2X6 brackets at the eave. Wood shingle tear-offs get fluffy and slip-slidy. I've done thousands of squares of them, new and tear-off. In the old days, we would take a bundle on each hip, walk a 16 " plank from a scissorbed, and go straight out across skip sheathing, making contact with only rafter-supported one-by. With shakes we'd cross over felt concealing the one-by but it was 1X6 with 4" gaps, not 1X4 with 4" gaps as shown. You get smart feet. After awhile you live for it, and when you think accordion skin on shin bones, it is amazing how few times you so much as even crack any of that dealboard they call "dimensional lumber. " That looks like a gambrel roof to me and I personally feel it is too much drop to keep a guy confident with nothing but a 2X4 laid flat. That's a site just made for a scissorbed right alongside the eave. Fall into that and you're in at less than six feet.

The tougher task is sheathing it. Scissorbed again. Right out of the truck. Pc, no, tactically sound, absolutely. Ropes are for working very very slowly, hanging yourself, or for towing things.

I won't take a job downtown anymore. Too restrictive. Regs, regs, and more regs. I will be the mouse, frozen in space on one toe until the the blind python sniffs its way down the road, flicking its tongue in search of a clumsier victim, groping its way along an endless winding path of wheelchair ramps, listening intently for squeaks.

Dorothy Parker: "Oh I should like to ride the waves, a roaring buccaneer, a cutlass banging at my knees, a dirk behind my ear, and when my captives chains would clank I'd howl with glee and drink, and then, fling out the quivering plank and watch the beggars sink." Just kidding of course, or am I? From time to time one might never know.

Of course I have hands like grappling hooks so I hold myself to a higher standard.

If it were two stories, in town, over pavement and pedestrians, I wouldn't touch that job without scaffolding. But it isn't.

Listen Up FL Roofer....I called my own boys Monkeys. (My workers not children) They heard it to their face. I compliment it. Some of you boys are nuts. Still doesn't make it right, doesn't make it safe. I understand the intro deal into the industry....GOTTA DO WHAT WHAT A MAN HAS TO DO" All we are saying is "don't put your guys in Jeopardy". They deserve a LIFE , just like you. PC

The problem is that there isn't a lot of "common sense" out there anymore. I know a lot of guys that would follow their "leader" right off a cliff if that is where they led them. Accidents are mistakes, and they happen. That whole situation looks like an "accident" waiting to happen.

I am just trying to say that is is not too bright to go and look for ways to get hurt. I am also sure that if an OSHA inspetor went by that job, the company would find themselves in a world of hurt.