opinions needed

ok i bid a job for a client that was based on a per sq. foot price. we were told the job was 5400 sq. feet but after the job was excepted they say ridge and hip are included. i say each foot of hip and ridge is more. they want other roofers opinions. give us yours thanks

I would say,You are the one guaranteeing the work,and contracting to do the work,according to the standard of the craft,for a walkable roof,4 nails per 3 tab,and 5 per dimensional are pretty standard practice,Extra nailing would be required in a high wind area only(Apparently you discussed the subject of wind with the homeowner for that very reason).As it was determined by the homeowner that you weren`t in a problem wind area,and you felt your work would be secure with 4 nails (3-tab).This to me means you were doing as promised to the standard of the craft,and the extra costs for "additional work" performed for the customer would technically be considered worthy of a "change order,especially if your men had to go back ,and add nails to meet the new criteria,which was determined to not be necessary in order to meet the standard of the craft--yes,you should at the least charge for extra nails,time spent traveling to procure them,and a slight amount towards the extra labor involved ,installing the 2 "extra nails" that were not necessary.

Of course by standard,all scaffold pitch roofs should be getting 6 nails per shingle regardless,and if you`re nailgunning dimensionals it`s only one extra nail,and I would only charge for the extra nails if you were cutting it that close-probably charge about 2$ per square extra using laminates in that situation--both Tamko Heritage,and GAF Timberline require 5 nails per shingle,not 4.

I personally feel that 5 nails is plenty on laminates even in high wind areas,if the nails are in the right places,and adding a sixth nail,just makes you wonder where to put it,As it`s not cut,and dry as placement would be with a 3-tab shingle

---Case in point...We tore off a roof Monday and I took today off. My helper worked installing 30 lams today but was told by the customer first thing this morning that he wanted "storm nailing." That is, 6 nails per shingle. Well, that is news to me and was not in the contract nor was it ever mentioned. In fact, the customer mentioned how they lived in a sheltered area that was protected from high winds! ---Now we need another box of nails ($30) plus slowing my helper down costing me about $38/hour. Do I add that $$$ to the final bill??? I consider it a work change order not covered in the contract. ---What say ye??? Lanny

3tab shingles include cost of cap,and starter,as they are supplied from same material architectural,or any material,which requires different materiaql should be listed by linear ft. price,

9I`ll usually include the labor in the total price,and charge the extra costs of specialty hip,ridge,and capping materials Mind you the square footage quoted will have the amounts required if it was a standard roof,and the customer would be charged per sq. rate for the amount of material it would be with 3 tab,then the cost of hips ,and starters is added in,as they are more expensive I think most important is to educate the client,on how the price is reached,and why,there is no way,I would accept a per sq. price to do work,without the client understanding fully how the pricing is figured,and signing off that they agree,You can`t really accept a job to work by the square,and expect the client to be willing to pay costs above what you have quoted,without proper explanation beforehand

H&R should be more money but you might have shot yourself in the foot by not specifying before hand.

---Miscommunication is the problem here and now the contractor has to bite the bullet. As a contractor I should know before bidding that H&R are necessary to complete the job. Who ever bids a job and thinks the H&R is an added fee? My per sq price INCLUDES the H&R. How can you bid a roof job that DOES NOT include the complete job??? I also want to know the configuration of the roof, how many stories, what pitch, how many vents I have to provide, etc and every other detail that effects my labor costs. I just did a residential job with 23 box vents. At $9.50 apiece that is over $200 just for vents!!! Well, I bid it accordingly. How could I add that cost to the job later??? ---5,400 sq feet means one thing to some and another thing to others. That is, roof area alone or the added ???% for starter & ridge? That question should have been asked within 5 seconds. 5,400 staight gable or full hip??? ---Sorry to side with the client on this one. It is the contractor's responsibility to know what he is bidding on. ---I get people who want a roof bid over the phone. I ask for the roof pitch and get all kinds of crazy answers. I am OK with ball-parking it but I must see the roof before a written bid is given. Lanny

Ok this is my opnion. ridge is part of the roof. so you pay to have it put back on. I would never go by anyones measurements other than my own. i agree with egg its extra period

When you are a large company, resources are there(I.E. sales reps.) to prevent this type of haggling. But I have seen in the past where smaller companies are forced to eat the hip/ridge if they want the job. Also customers don't like it when you quote a 22sq job when the other estimates are only 20sq. Even though you try to expain the difference, they are still convinced your ripping them off.

But 5400 sq feet, could turn out to be a lot of hip/ridge. And more cost, especially, if they want to go with a high def ridge. If you can't get out of the contract, try negotiating a materials only price for the extra material. At this point your goal is to cut as much loss as possible.

I can understand that then. Roberts' client wouldn't necessarily go for it. TomB has his finger on it imo when he says, "...The customer/avg. Joe, isn't a roofer, and is not typically privy to any particular lingo, or specific methods utilized by a particular trade or craft..." I'd say sometimes they are completely innocent and sometimes they deliberately misunderstand; it's a human trait to misunderstand. If I tell you a job will cost between six and eight thousand dollars, let enough time go by and I guarantee you that you will remember I told you six.

However we explain it and however we derive a per square number, whether before or after the job is costed out, it is clear to me that we roofers universally add for ridge, one way or another. I know a lot of roofers and they do things differently with just about every aspect of the business but not one of them I know assumes trim to be part of the field material cost. When we do a tile job we always reach that point where we look at each other and say, "Well, it's all layed up now. A couple of days to trim it out and we're done." With tile there are also substantial loading costs. Unless specified as load and lay, these are never assumed to be part of installation costs. If you tell me you are going to provide material what do you mean, stocked?...what do you mean FOB?" or if you ask me to give you a price to load and lay, is it ground-drop or to the eave? You get some delivery boy to put 50,000 lbs of clay or concrete at the back of your lot and say "there you go" it's not nearly the same as spreading it in the proper pattern. You tell me it will be loaded, what then if I have to move half of it because it's loaded funny? If you ask me how much I will charge per square to lay it up, who covers clean-up? I can complete your roof and leave you centralized piles of scrap, but I'm not taking all that "material" to who knows what dump for you without using my equipment, gas, and time, for pay. Laying tile on-site and delivering/undelivering tile off-site are two entirely different parts of the job.

This is why I have zero interest in labor-only jobs. There's no money in it and no gratitude either. You're just a paid flunkie.

The manufacturer, the 'jobber,' the 'wholesaler,' the 'retailer,' the customer are the typical legitimate players in the supply chain, the so-called middlemen with a legitimate claim to exist. We are essentially the retailer. You can't eliminate us as a legitimate middleman without turning us into employees. Employees aren't independent contractors.

Egg, The formula I use for a shingle roof (and have done for years) is total sq ft of roof area, eg 50sq + 10% Hip 'n' ridge, valleys, starters etc = 55sq + 10% waste. Total shingles needed 60sq for a 50sq roof. Not to say I have never run short, but most times I have a couple of bundles left over to leave with the homeowner for any subsequent repair. For a tile roof I get the total sq foot of tiled area + 10% breakages the lineal ft of hip 'n' ridge divided by the length of the ridge tiles used to give me the number of ridge tiles I need. The cost of these is then added to the cost of the tile. I don't subtract for the mortar joints as there are always some broken. Obviously roof accessories are added (felt paper, nails, mortar) I am just explaining the use of the word opposite.

If I understand this correctly, you agreed to a square foot price just for labor and they are supplying all needed materials. So it wouldn't matter what type of ridge they furnish your labor price would still remain the same. We charge by the square foot for the basic roofing including the ridge and waste. We use 25 yr. 3-tabs for the ridge included with the lowest possible bid. If they want hip and ridge then they will have to pay extra for the materials AND the Labor. Anyways back to your question. If you do a job by the square then however many squares are used is what you should get paid for. I mean it is what it is. lol The hip and ridge is the slowest part of the job. Why in the world would you do it for free? Sounds to me like you didn't measure this job for yourself and just accepted what they told you since it really didn't seem like it mattered because you would be paid X amount per squares used regardless if the job ran over OR under. They are overbudget because of their own miscalculations and now are looking for a way to lower the costs at your expense naturally. That would be totally unacceptable to me. Best of Luck! ;)

I disagree about the opposite for shingles. Hip and ridge is always extra. The way prices are now, it matters what kind of ridge. Cut units, standard ridge, doubled ridge, or pre-manufactured contoured ridge; what exactly is the assumption? Can be big bucks to go giving away on a tight bid. You pay me enough per square (of field) and I'll give you anything you want. You want a tight price and everything has to get itemized. I charge for starter. In the old days I did exactly what Steve did. 100 lineal feet was bid as one square. Not any longer, although depending on what the spec is, it might still fall into that range. I like to buy my vehicles by the lineal foot, but they're not like roofs. With them, you know exactly what you're getting. I thought I got gyped on the last one. It was the right length, but only two feet wide. I was getting all up in arms until I realized it was a rocket.

A sq. Ft. is a sq. ft....The customer/avg. Joe, isn't a roofer, and is not typically privy to any particular lingo, or specific methods utilized by a particular trade or craft....When I buy a gallon of gasoline at the filling station, I pay for the gallon of gas that went through the meter at the pump & into my tank....I wouldn't take kindly if the station owner said I had to buy 1.1 gallons because .10 gallon get's utilized through evaporation, spillage, what-have-you....He may have purchased 21 gallons so as to provide 20 gallons to the customer....Don't know if that makes sense to you...It's the best I could come up with....

That's why I never quote a per sq. or per SF price.....I figure the job, then divide the total bid by the actual "measured", (or as I refer the "gross footage"); And, whalla....thar ya have the "Per SF" price.

Hey, give away whatever you want, but when I do something by the square, or bundle or whatever, I charge for every bundle I apply. Ridges are in bundles and so are the starters. What is the big mystry?

Did'nt we do this already? The tile roof right? Hip 'n' ridge is NOT included. Unless of course they tell you before hand. For a shingle roof the opposite applies.

when measuring a job we always add 10% on gables for ridge, starter, and waste -- 15% on hip roofs --

When we have worked by the square for other contractors most pay for ridge per sq as well - 5 bundles of timbertex ridge equals 1 sq - or 3tab ridge 3 bundles per sq.

Now the Mexican crews however do not count the ridge and starter per sq foot just actual shingles - I heard from other companies i have worked for have questioned me the same before " our other crews dont charge for ridge" My answer is we always have some hip roofs can have an additional 3 sq or better worth of ridge you bid extra for it when you sell the job otherwise you would be short materials right?