Let me beat a dead horse.....again!

Jim, I dont think there is any way to legitmize a storm job / Claim -- first of all 90% of roofs or better have at leat 5 years or better life left on them or are in need of replacement to begin with - so that leaves insurance companies footing the bill for good roofs with life left on them or taking over homeowner responsibility and spreading their irresponsibility on us all. which in returns costs all of us more.

Second Knowing what i know about insurance and adjusting that you can have American family for one barely covers cost of the job - or state farm with 25 - 30% profit margin -- to Liberty mutual 50% plus profit margins for the contractor all using xactimate the same program. What kinda a scam is happening? Differnt banks backing them where is the economy and why is it where it is? because the banks took the responsibility and f' ed it up.

Third knowing this where is your estimate dollar wise? and why you truly dont like to give your number out before hand is because you will leave money on the table. Furthermore what incentive do you have to actually bill the insurance company a lower number than they are willing to pay. I will not say you do not and bill them for just what you need vs upgrading and throwing in extras at everyone elses expense just cause the insurance company is willing to pay more for a job you can do for less espesially if they are paying a 25 year and you are installing a 30 year you could bill them for less and save them some money which inturn saves us all some money. But then again i do not know you well enough to say you dont. I can tell you that i do - but as the business goes i do not all the time sometimes i am pressured to throw in the 30 year if my estimate is lower. This is why it is not legitimate because those of us that see the whole picture cannot feel good about selling an insurance job knowing they are paying for something they should not be and billing it in our premiums.

minnesotaroofin Said: I pretty much agree with Randy it is twice the work selling and collecting an insurancce job. Jim you had to read an adjustment 15 times to get the hang of it now not only do you need to understand it so does your customer and not all are as bright when it comes to construction terminology - so you 15 times explaining once to a customer does not cut it most times. This ontop of just the plain old pitch about your company. Then you have to submit the paperwork and billing on a roof under 10k easy but those aabove the Mortgage companies and the w9s, completion certs, conditional lien waivers, 3 inspections and then more paperwork, then more waiting etc.... Probably more like 3 or 4 times the work.

I'll agree that there is more paperwork for some of those mortgage deals. I don't mind and it's not too much paperwork to deal with though. The first time through was a bit challenging but I immediately put everything into a spreadsheet. Now, every job I propose has the proper documents created with every "estimate". If I need the documents, I print and fax them. Usually, I fax them directly from the e-file.

So, most mortgage deals take me about ten minutes more than a non-mortgage deal. There is a benefit though....most checks are made out to both the client and my company and that reduces my risk. Also, some mortgage companies require a notarized statement. My banker notarizes all our docs so that doesn't really add anymore time to the job either because we are in the bank on a regular basis anyways.

I guess I'm one of the few that actually prefer insurance deals. I'm very comfortable explaining them and getting a signature on contingency contracts. The more complicated it seems, the more likely I'll get the job. The clients might not actually understand everything I'm telling them but I guess they trust me.

I pretty much agree with Randy it is twice the work selling and collecting an insurancce job. Jim you had to read an adjustment 15 times to get the hang of it now not only do you need to understand it so does your customer and not all are as bright when it comes to construction terminology - so you 15 times explaining once to a customer does not cut it most times. This ontop of just the plain old pitch about your company. Then you have to submit the paperwork and billing on a roof under 10k easy but those aabove the Mortgage companies and the w9's, completion certs, conditional lien waivers, 3 inspections and then more paperwork, then more waiting etc.... Probably more like 3 or 4 times the work.

Jim, Just because I can. Just the honest truth. I have always been paid better by insurance then by normal homeowners, which I guess gets back to our earlier conversation about how some think insurance pays too cheap. If I have to deal with an adjuster, wait for payment....it should pay a premium.

Right now......on a 1 story, 1 layer, 3-tab, 5/12 roof with average number of vents, 1 chimney and a dish......insurance is paying $300+ I was losing bids @ 200 not long ago. There are still guys who will do them for 160-170.

I start high with insurance...then if they beat me down they are still above my normal price, if they dont beat me down...the homeowner wins.

Best to you.

There's a local auto body shop that advertises heavily on radio. For years(decades) their spiel has been to try to be on the side of the customer vs the insurance company. They'd claim to only use factory parts even though the insurance companies didn't want them to and claim that state law entitled the customer to use them and not one selected by the insurance company. Then, very recently, the've changed their ads. Now they brag about how they're the area's biggest auto body shop and most major insurance companies have adjusters right on their premises and how well they work with them.

I don't know what this means or has to do with the subject, I just ramble.

RandyB1986 Said: Jim, I understand where you are coming from on the estimate being higher than RCV. I think many homeowners get confused on the RCV, ACV and depreciation. And I tend to make insurance estimates higher than normal.....I try to explain to them why, but I think I confuse them even more.

Now I'm intrigued. "Why would you "tend to make insurance estimates higher than normal"?

If I have to give a number, it's going to be the same whether it's an insurance claim or a "regular" re-roof. I might adjust upward for difficulty factors but they would be the same for insurance and non insurance jobs.

Homeowners most certainly are confused about RCV ACV and depreciation. I was confused myself after reading some of them for the 15th time. I carry around a sample report and occasionally pull that out to discuss the various elements of the insurance system.

Jim, I understand where you are coming from on the estimate being higher than RCV. I think many homeowners get confused on the RCV, ACV and depreciation. And I tend to make insurance estimates higher than normal.....I try to explain to them why, but I think I confuse them even more.

The concept of "fighting the insurance co" is misleading.The insurance companies charge certain rates and they don't budge.Even if all roofers in town bid for that job the HO pays just the deductible so all that bidding doesn't save him any money.The selling point on insurance claims should be the quality of work.being local, having good subs and good references is what matters.

RandyB1986 Said: Jim...Sorry I didnt get back with you, I have been busy.

That was first hand knowledge.........we had a friends dad call them and they wouldnt even give him an estimate without signing the contract. Then we had an undercover reporter do the same thing.

You asked Is there something wrong with insurance proceeds.....well of course not, the problem is if I advertise a free estimate then I will give you a free estimate.....simply writing insurance proceeds is NOT AN ESTIMATE.

These bastards are also telling everyone they are a local company, when in fact they are out of Miami and have been shut down under 3 different names.

As for insurance not paying enough.........I think some people have too much overhead.

Thanks Randy. I'm still doing a lot of insurance work and this is good information. I like knowing how some of the stormers operate.

I agree, some people do have too much overhead. Some people are shooting for too big of a profit margin. Some people simply don't do business in a way that will fit into the insurance company's system of assigning value. At this point in my roofing career, it works for me in most situations.

I often get signatures, and commitments, to do the roof without giving a number. I simply agree to work with the insurance companies numbers and that works for some of the leads. There are other leads that insist on seeing a number. I'm fine with giving them one. In most cases, I already know the number but I'm holding out until I know the insurance number.

You might ask..why hold out? Well, I have lost jobs because my "estimate" was higher than the RCV, even though I explained that I would work with that number. The problem is that I'm not sitting in their kitchen when they open their insurance report and look at the numbers. They see their check and it's far below what they need to do the roof because the insurance company has witheld their deductible and depreciation. So, in a panic, they don't call me because my number is many thousands of dollars higher than their check. Then, some other roofer gets an appointment and gets the job because he's the guy sitting at the table when the insurance report is discussed and explained. I've won several jobs like that myself.

So, I don't see anything wrong with signing an agreement without knowing the numbers. We'll work them out after the insurance report comes in.

I have won quite a few jobs from stormers because they refused to give a number. Just the other day, a guy told me that he eliminated one of the bidders simply because the guy insisted on getting a signature and then "fighting the insurance company" for more than they were offering. I also did two jobs in the last month with a guy who refused to use a roofer that he had already worked with and was satisfied with...but...the guy just wanted to sign the deal for significantly more and then fight the insurance company.

The concept of "fighting the insurance company" must be lucrative because these guys seem to be stuck in that business model. Do you know anything about it?

Jim...Sorry I didnt get back with you, I have been busy.

That was first hand knowledge.........we had a friends dad call them and they wouldnt even give him an estimate without signing the contract. Then we had an undercover reporter do the same thing.

You asked "Is there something wrong with insurance proceeds".....well of course not, the problem is if I advertise a "free estimate" then I will give you a free estimate.....simply writing "insurance proceeds" is NOT AN ESTIMATE.

These bastards are also telling everyone they are a local company, when in fact they are out of Miami and have been shut down under 3 different names.

As for insurance not paying enough.........I think some people have too much overhead.

I don't think many of the customers I've sold would sign a contract to let me inspect their roof. I wonder about the veracity of that statement. Is this firsthand knowledge or heresay?

Is there something wrong with agreeing to do the roof for the insurance payout? I've heard from many roofers that the insurance payout is too low. So, if the insurance payout is low, then agreeing to do the roof for the insurance proceeds seems to be a bargain.

I seen a contract from this company.....it has no amount on estimate, it says in total due "insurance proceeds"....they tell the customers they have to sign the contract before they can legally go on the homeowners roof for inspection.

Tom, Not the red trucks B) These are the guys from Miami who sold $6,000,000 last year with 7 employees :woohoo: They have also been in trouble in MN. MO. and ILL.

I am a redneck......and we getting some redneck justice.

Well i would have done what i did as a kid loaded the gun with a fresh coil and started shooting like a mad man, paslode style. Ah the days. then i would have said get the f out of here and called an insurance company on their little butt.

Or you could have stopped got their ploy's and used it against them. I did that, well over the phone on of them called me for help and well i took everything he had remixed it and just help others with it for nothing.

Were they trying to intimidate you? Or an honest mistake?

Did the hoemowner screw up? Are they getting pressured?

I'm not big enough or redneck enough to make a fight out of it. Plus no one has a "right" to be there. It is all of courtesy to the owner we are there ("free" estimate)

I think I'd come back and get the homeowner to divulge their info. (Did they have red trucks Randy?)

Getting the job is the best revenge