Let me beat a dead horse.....again!

Well guys.....what would you think if you were on a roof giving an estimate, in your home town...and not 1 but 2 different stormchasers stop and try getting the job......with me on the roof!!

Keep in mind they were both national stormchasers....and they already have signs everywhere!

How would you react?

More to come.....but first I want to know what you would think if this happened to you?

Thanks!

:woohoo:

jimAKAblue Said:

minnesotaroofin Said: so now no one ever has to pay for a new roof or siding they get old enough a hard rain / wind will damage the shingle.

Thats quite a reach.

Yrs. ago I told an adjuster that the Ins. Cos. are geeting into the home maintenance biz. He just agreed.

It sucks to be right all the time because I am such a negative person....

minnesotaroofin Said: so now no one ever has to pay for a new roof or siding they get old enough a hard rain / wind will damage the shingle.

That's quite a reach.

The roofing industry is like an insect that eats itself. Someday only our heads will be left with no belly to feed.

Shingles in mn wear out 15-20 years tops always have - Them certainteeds were good for 12 due to defect. a 30 year Timberline be lucky to get much over 20 years. So if a lady has a 20 year old roof on her house regardless of hail she should rightfully be due to pay for it. Or the insurance should perform due dilligence and deny her renewal -coverage for an old roof. so now no one ever has to pay for a new roof or siding they get old enough a hard rain / wind will damage the shingle. same with siding -- So lets just all pay our dues - yes and by the way that comes out of your gross profit if you get it - so that 24% is even looking worse -

Well Terry, I hate to offend anyone here - But out of all the squares i have laid in 22 years i have never had a leak due to an exposed nail - so anyone who can say they have never left an exposed nail is full of it - Just like a roofer who says they have never had a leak - Its one thing to strive for perfection it is a totally separate thing to be perfect. Maybee some of you have not been in businees long to know better or not been a roofer long enough. As far as warrants go - i am in pretty good with my rep. out of the 22 years he has never questioned the validity of any warranty issues on any of my claims.

The next time any of you are in MN you could come vist our jobsite - See what kind of work we do :woohoo: - Or check us out on the web you can see my profile for our company name or just google (MN roofers) we are - #1 - In the organic results. -- Just post your company name in your profile so i can check you out.

minnesotaroofin Said:

As far as the 24% profit i would be happy if i made that every job -

And your last statement -- i dont care what anyone says about hail if it does not break a glass car or truck window it will not drasticly reduce the life of the shingle -- I have one house in my neighborhood that has the original roof of 22 years on it it does show signs of curling etc

I don't know if you responding to my post or someone elses. I didn't say I made a 24% profit. I'd be tickled pink if I could make a true 24% profit on any job. I said I made a 24% gross markup. After cutting out overhead and other soft expenses, that doesn't leave enough for me to get excited. I might do one of these but if I start getting a run on them, I'm in trouble.

As far as your expertise regarding roofs that have been hit by hail....how would you explain the north side of the house looking significantly older and beat up than the south side? There were no specific hits that were evident to the eye? Yet, there were patches of black asphalt appearing everywhere.

I just left a roof yesterday and they told me that every time it rains, their driveway is now covered with grit from the roof. Is it possible that the lady with 22 year old shingles has a roof that is more suitable to be hailed on? Wouldn't some products hold their granules better?

I don't know the answers...I just think the insurance companies should be paying for these roofs if they aren't going to last their 20 years because of hail. I believe the hail is reducing their shelf life. What else would explain the vast difference between two sides of the same house?

Minnesota---my question is.... Why were there exposed fasteners in the first place? Exposed nail heads = potential leaks. I would have held payment until the shingles were replaced and there were no exposed heads. If there were a problem with the shingles down the road, the manufacturer warranty would be void for workmanship reasons.

Minnesota---I always thought that the roof was there to protect the house too!

Good rant tho... it puts it all into perspective. As one who is guity of all of the above it is kind of strange. And you are OH SO RIGHT, where are "our" organizations while the Gooberm$nt is pushing thru its agenda?

One more example - i had an inspector tell me he was not going to final my roof cause i had a couple (3) exposed fasteners in the middle of a deck - not blatant just half the head or so under the lap i put a little pookey on them and said there you go. He said nope pull em and replace them( the shingles) I told him to get a clue and get the hell off my job and he could stick the final up his rear since he had nothing to do with the warranty since the city is immune to prosecution. I then proceeded to call his supervisor and explain to him in detail what i thought - In short he finaled it and now when i call for inspections i am given the respect i have earned over the past 20 years code or no code.

If it were up to me - i would prefer they not inspect and catch any improper installed roofs and the companies who have to rely on them to make sure their job is done right would belly up because they would not have an inspector babysitting them. But now to run a roofing company all you need to due is follow what you are told and how your told to do it. No risk no responsibility just gets pushed onto a babysitter who drives around in nice new trucks we pay for.

Well since Insurance is pretty much mandated it gives insurance companies free rein to charge what they want. Hell i would love it it the government mandated everyone has to pay me a premium monthly just in case. And while we are there i do not need any special licenses or and real guidlines to follow i can charge what i want to anyone i can approve or disprove giving that money back based on someones opinion like the adjuster. And what real qualifications does he or she need. Just another form of socialism being created.

As far as the 24% profit i would be happy if i made that every job - i would do just fine. But just think how guttless contractors really are now days. The city - the state - or federal says jump and every contractor i know says how high. I mean really you are fine with letting them as well as the insurance companies run your business ( basicially determining your livelyhood) Your comp rates go up what do you do? pay them -- permits go up you pay them -- the new lead law -- oh i better get licensed -- state codes change - you accept them -- manufactures creating preferred contractors -- oh better become preferred -- creating longer 20 year 100% coverage -- better do it -- all this brings our costs up so that 24% isn't really looking that good anymore because contractors have no backbone.

Now you can add the ins onto the top covering roofs that do not need to be done based on fictisious pricing that has been mandated by the state city and fed -- then our portion is labor and markup while the others get the lions share and you sit back and say well thats the way it is( business is business) Its actually BS - Do any of those Nrca type of organizations actually stand up and fight for us anymore? like the lead law by the feds -- Oh better jump on the bandwagon and fess up -- they should have fought for us not promoted the gov rule which is bs -- Does anyone ever write their senator and wonder why all the city state guys driving a new vehicle every year building multimillion dollar facilities off that mandated money?

And your last statement -- i dont care what anyone says about hail if it does not break a glass car or truck window it will not drasticly reduce the life of the shingle -- I have one house in my neighborhood that has the original roof of 22 years on it it does show signs of curling etc -- but has been through at least 6 different hail storms -- i have done the roof 2 doors down twice in the past 10 years alone due to hail claim and every other if not every house has been done twice in ten years while this one still performs fine. And to make it even more clear it is a duplex that the roof that is tied into it has been done twice in the past ten years due to hail. Old lady wants nothing to due with a new roof even now that it looks like crap. My roof dont leak!! - Is all you will get out of her.

minnesotaroofin Said: Jim, I dont think there is any way to legitmize a storm job / Claim -- first of all 90% of roofs or better have at leat 5 years or better life left on them or are in need of replacement to begin with - so that leaves insurance companies footing the bill for good roofs with life left on them or taking over homeowner responsibility and spreading their irresponsibility on us all. which in returns costs all of us more.

Second Knowing what i know about insurance and adjusting that you can have American family for one barely covers cost of the job - or state farm with 25 - 30% profit margin -- to Liberty mutual 50% plus profit margins for the contractor all using xactimate the same program. What kinda a scam is happening? Differnt banks backing them where is the economy and why is it where it is? because the banks took the responsibility and f ed it up.

Third knowing this where is your estimate dollar wise? and why you truly dont like to give your number out before hand is because you will leave money on the table. Furthermore what incentive do you have to actually bill the insurance company a lower number than they are willing to pay. I will not say you do not and bill them for just what you need vs upgrading and throwing in extras at everyone elses expense just cause the insurance company is willing to pay more for a job you can do for less espesially if they are paying a 25 year and you are installing a 30 year you could bill them for less and save them some money which inturn saves us all some money. But then again i do not know you well enough to say you dont. I can tell you that i do - but as the business goes i do not all the time sometimes i am pressured to throw in the 30 year if my estimate is lower. This is why it is not legitimate because those of us that see the whole picture cannot feel good about selling an insurance job knowing they are paying for something they should not be and billing it in our premiums.

I'm not understanding why you think there is something wrong with the current method of each insurance company creating their own method of paying off claims. This is America, the home of captialism, where every company is free to create their own business system. They then take their programs to the public and sell, sell, sell. Yes, some companies will be easier to work with, from the contractor's point of view. Some homeowners will think their insurance company was better. Variety is the spice of life.

Can an insurance company really know how much I need to make a living and a profit? Not really. They give their "estimates" and we offer our services at whatever price we want. Their insurance report is nothing more than their estimate of what it will cost but in reality, they have based their numbers on an average of available materials and labor. In theory, no one will match their estimates.

As for me, I can figure out what I want to charge without the insurance companies helping me. I'm quite content with my pricing but if they are willing to pay more, I'm willing to take it. Why?...because it will help me to balance out my numbers and fit into their "average".

My late father in law ran a funeral home. He told me that he lost money on the two lowest price funerals. He felt that he was contributing to the community by serving those that were unable to pay more. He said that he was fine with this so long as he didn't have to serve more than his fair share. He noted that the "helpful" local Priests would steer too many poor people to his funeral home, which forced him into raising his prices on the lowest priced products. In the end, it forced him to do what was necessary to stay solvent...but it hurt the poor people in his community because he didn't have the right balance between "lucrative" funerals and "poorman" funerals.

The same applies to roofs. Some roofs pay more and subsidize those that don't seem to work out. I'm doing one now that looks like it will return only a 24% gross profit markup. That is outrageously low...but it is offset by some that I have done closer to 100% markup. At the end of the year, I'll be close to the target that I've set out for myself. Am I wrong for trying to keep my head above water and survive? Don't I owe that to the customers I've already served? If you agree that it's right to profit and survive, then I don't see how you can view each individual job without looking at the bigger picture...the same way the insurance companies do it.

So, there are many reasons that I don't want to put my numbers on the table first. My numbers are calculated with a cold hard formula. As you've pointed out, the insurance company will sometimes be higher or lower than my number. Anyway I look at it, I feel I'm better off knowing their numbers before I put mine on the table. We are in a negotiation whether I like it or not and the first rule of negotiating is: knowledge is power. The second rule is: he who speaks first is in the weaker position. When you put those two ideas together, it makes perfect sense that I would prefer to view the insurance report before I put my numbers on the table. Even when it all happens like that, I'm usually fighting to get my number. Occasionally, I've been pleasantly surprised and didn't have to battle...but those cases are much too rare for my tastes.

As far as trying to save the general public a few pennies....I've never once gave that a thought. Now that you've mentioned it, I still won't think about it. I'm much too focused on my survival and also putting on a decent roof for my customers.

Lastly, I don't agree that we shouldn't replace roofs that have been pelted by hail. I've seen the evidence whereas roofs loose their granules a few years down the road thereby greatly reducing the service life of the shingles. I just replaced a roof that looked like it was new on the backside of the house and 25 years old on the front side of the house. I had advised the owner that his insurance company probably wouldn't approve the claim because I couldn't see any evidence of chunks taken out. I was wrong...the adjuster bought the roof and I believe it was the right decision.

What do you guys do when you go out to a job and the person just hands you the insurance adjustment, you glance at it and knowing the work is going to cost around $16,000......you see the insurance already gave a $19,000 check and still $6000 left to recover in depr.

Do you.......

A. Stick it to them and tell them repairs are going to take it all?

B. Tell them your price is $16,000....to enjoy their $3000 bonus?

C. Tell them 16000 is cost but then help them get any depreciations back they are entitled to and maybe do some other repairs?

D. Just tell them you will do everything for what the insurance paid, and then stick it to them?

How often do you guys let insurance company keep depr. money because it is not needed in your cost?

Just rambling......

Yet another sign of socialism -- where we all just pay our premiums and we are takin care of like little spoiled brats. Which is what the rest of the world thinks of us Amewricans Hmmmmm wonder why?.