Good bye sub-game

The "Payroll Fraud Prevention Act".....S.1687....an independent contractor misclassification law.

Excellent bit of legislation - Hope it has teeth/is enforced.....However, will most-likely simply ad burden and confusion/manipulation to our fine gov't......

What's the saying? "Good intentions aren't worth a fiddlers' #$%@!" (?)

Once again - Don't we have laws to prevent this? Just more attorney opportunities.....

My point exactly! Perception IS reality ;)

Tom, you and I are building from 2 different sets of plans here. I don't sit around waiting for governmental entities and other people to tell me what is the right thing to do. I use my own brain. Instinctively I challenge what most people accept as the norm. I don't care if 999 out of 1,000 people are doing something a certain way, it still must be ran through my brain to determine if it makes sense or not.

It's easy to get hung up on habits - things that have been done a certain way for so long that most people assume that any other way is wrong.

Nor am I moved by or pressured by people who want to use regulations in order to hogtie their competition so that they get a few crumbs by default.

Ya know, I must admit, after reading comments I may becoming more liberal/tolerant, in understanding that it's all simply perception.....ie., one culture deems it just fine to wipe with their hands, where another finds it repulsive. One doesn't make the other wrong.

I'm just trying to get my head/mentality/moral compass, whatever it is - around it.

In the meantime, I've always been able to adapt & flourish no matter where. - just not with full "buy-in".

It's true that most playing the sub-game just simply see no wrong in twisting/dodging the laws - they just don't know any better/different - That's the way it's done, so that's what they do. They feel because most others are doing it, that somehow they're not being deceptive.

I'm confident there are many on this forum that operate in states where the sub-game is prevalent, yet in their own minds, choose a higher road,

To reiterate somewhat; Some of us are burdened with varying degrees of self-adorned ethics/morals, that prevent us from crossing some line....We all have different lines - However, we all have lines, we simply won't cross no matter what.

BTW - For those that still don't get it; The "sub-game" as I refer to it, is the practice of misrepresenting employees as independent contractors - Not authentic subcontracting.

I'm talking about the outfit that runs ads for "roofing crews" - some even stipulate "must have trade name & GL ins" - they're paid about the same as what an authentic employer pays his employees - certainly not enough to cover all the appropriate labor burdens. The employer dictates the pay, procures the job, says when & how it is performed, provides all the materials, etc.....It's straight-up deception.

However.........Some of you might simply agree that there should be no "employees" what-so-ever.....Absolute "liberty" - That there should simply be an open-market..."survival of the fittest" so-to-speak....The natural order will work things out.

Illegals/students/retired/unskilled types should simply line-up at McDonalds & Walmart every morning; Those willing to work for the least will get to work that day.

It most-likely would work out eventually - anything would - given free-reign - But, oh what chaos along the way!

You know, it's a tight line to follow too. Several companies around here use me as a sub when I can fit them in for special slate and copper roofs. I nearly always sub out the shingle jobs that come my way. Some clients insist I do the work and not sub it, nor steer them to somebody else.

When alcohol became illegal in Prohibition did it stop drinking, or did it just make those selling it illegally wealthy?

Roofing is similar to gun control. Making guns illegal (establishing new roofing regulations) doesn't stop the bad guys, it just erects obstacles for the good guys.

I am dealing with the same regulation BS with MMA and fight promoters, here in Michigan professional MMA is a few years old now. and a lot of people are demanding regulations in the amateur MMA, not understanding that almost all of the regulations are going to make a few people ALOT of money !!

self regulations are working just fine, its weeding out the bad and promoting the good. Yes, there are guys that keep jumping in the fight promotion trade, but they don't last long.

as with the roofing trade, I think self regulation is working just fine.

But then, I do make a lot of money off the hacks out there that the regulations would get rid of..............

I dunno?!

While I applaud Tom for the courage to pull up and relocate vs just taking a job as a manager or estimator at another roofing company, it raises a question. How many years left in your career would you have to have to justify such a move?

In my case, I was in business for 8 years before I reached a point that was truly financially stable. Sure, I had a decent home, new vehicles, etc before then, but not real financial security. That was followed by a very lucrative decade before I decided to cut back. With that in mind, I wouldn't move to start over anytime after reaching age 40.

TomB Said: Much like true communism, the notion of absolute liberty sounds good, but could never exist.

My point was that things are jacked-up, (or regulated), just enough, to assist the less-than-ethical types to warp those laws. IOWs - Regulation in some instances actually enables the crooks,(so-to-speak), and tweaking/correcting is needed along the way.

Which EXACTLY what has occurred with the sub-game crap.

The alternative, would be to dump the whole notion of any regulation at all, which would be fine by me.....But we all know that wont work either.

So long as theres laws, some of us have ethics & will attempt to do right thing, while others will continue to attempt to get a leg-up on their fellow man, by skirting/manipulating those laws.....Thats just human nature.

While balance is the goal, seldom is that accomplished when those making the rules have a personal agenda or a financial gain to be had. When lobbyists who're being paid by wealthy entities to create legislation that favors themselves, the resulting law protects no one but the guy who bought the legislation.

Most of you remember when you bought auto insurance to protect yourself, not the other guy. The other guy was supposed to buy insurance to protect himself. But the insurance industry knew they could make billions if they lobbied to make it a law to carry insurance. Slippery slope.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." ---Thomas Jefferson

"The alternative, would be to dump the whole notion of any regulation at all, which would be fine by me.....But we all know that won't work either."

In this area, from the time I first started roofing 30 years ago and for at least 15 years from then, that's exactly how it was. Little to no regulation.

The pay wasn't much less than it is now and Highly skilled American roofers were in abundance.

When other types of work slowed people could always fall back on the trades for work. Not true anymore. Instead, today the trade jobs are all taken by mostly illegal immigrants leaving everyone to compete for the few other type jobs there are available.

Much like true "communism", the notion of absolute liberty sounds good, but could never exist.

My point was that things are "jacked-up, (or "regulated"), just enough, to assist the less-than-ethical types to warp those laws. IOW's - Regulation in some instances actually enables the crooks,(so-to-speak), and tweaking/correcting is needed along the way.

Which EXACTLY what has occurred with the "sub-game" crap.

The alternative, would be to dump the whole notion of any regulation at all, which would be fine by me.....But we all know that won't work either.

So long as there's laws, some of us have ethics & will attempt to do right thing, while others will continue to attempt to get a leg-up on their fellow man, by skirting/manipulating those laws.....That's just human nature.

Yes, we wouldn't want unbridled liberty to break out. :huh:

This country has forgotten how to defend the liberties drafted by our founding fathers, and fought and died for by our military. We allow them to be chipped away, thinking "Oh, this infringement will be ok," until there will be none left.

It has nothing to do with roofing and everything to do with principle. Just like business necessarily requires that the strong eat the weak, you cannot remove all the risks in life by promulgating a law every time you identify an unjustness or inequality. It is the grade school equivalent of not allowing kids to keep score in sports matches.

I have come to the inevitable conclusion that enough people do not grasp this concept that our country's future is limited by it. I will spend my time and energy managing and planning around that eventuality than in trying to convince people who refuse to open their eyes and their history books.

"Beware the wolf in sheeps' cloaking - Those content and proponents of dysfunctional regulation that affords unbridled opportunities to pillage under the guise of liberty"

Just made it up (LOL)

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

---Benjamin Franklin

That's exactly the kinda crap this bill/law is designed to dispel.

20 yrs ago when I first arrived here in Colorado, those types of shysters had "it all figured-out", (so they thought).

They would go to all kinds of antics, such as having their "subs" get "trade names" from the state, local business licenses, "accident" insurance, even GL insurance.

Now matter what the smoke'n-mirrors, they're employees, plain & simple.

Mass. made an attempt to curtail the practice a few years ago. I don't know whether it stuck or not; Possibly someone who does business in Mass. could opine. A few yrs ago, Mass. at least attempted to pass a law, to which a trade contractor could not "sub" it's own/primary labor/craft to another of the same trade.

The company owners around here have recently started requiring their "subs" to provide a copy of a business license. Any business license. Evidently this will cover their butts.

In turn, the subs just go to a small city or county court house where they can purchase a one year license for about $200 with the only requirement being to pay the money.