foam insulation

Looked at a building today and had to do a few test cuts. The insulation was a green in color. It is a foam product. Not sure of the manufacturer. Boss is wondering if it is some kind of phenolic foam. Any guess as to what this may be. No pictures currently available.

Thanks for you help

Yes, Fibertite.

Thanks

Nice looking roof fibertite ? Have done a few of these roofs the last one i did i used eps as spec by the architect.Was 8 inches thick but we did install a vaper barrior material from germany and butyl tape before eps per there spec. then a ballested epdm. did not want any fasteners for same reason as was talked about.

Left during the middle of this thread for vacation; didn't mean to abandon it. Thanks for the great pix, Mike. Much appreciated. Very informative discussion here also. I'm going to have to mull over a number of the comments scattered throughout.

Yes. To some degree. The thermal bridges of the fasteners won't attract moisture where none can get in, but you are right about the pentration of the screws. We used screws long enough to hit the bottom of the flutes, so at least we weren't making holes, then pulling the screws back out.

I gave them a price for a much higher quality vapor barrier and foamed in place system, but they said no.

Sealing these walls is the big factor. Most freezers don't have vapor barriers on the deck. If they will take my advice and start closing the doors EVERY TIME and sealing a few pipe voids in the walls, it is going to make a significant difference over what they had before.

The impermiability of the plastic sheet will be compromised by the decking screws which will act also as thermal shorts.the cold humid air coming from underneath the deck will be trapped between the plastic sheet and the steel deck causing further corrosion.the best way to eleminate the problem would be spray foaming the ceiling and walls from the inside.

I don't have a good pic of the whole assemply, but the PS window wrap extened over the edge to the metal panels. A bead of WCO was placed at the edge of the tape. Another bead of WCO was installed on the face of this membrane. When the metal clip was installed, it pressed into both beads of WCO providing a possitive vapor barrier to stop migration into the insulation.

Just about a perfect match

The wonderful world of the "Safety Monitor"

If it wasn't for cracks on the roof, no one would need a roofer.

That was a nice lift if you ever need one.

Staged and ready :P

VB down and seam taped, walls wrapped, insulation starting... 2" + 2" + 2.5" + 1/2" Dens Deck

From sun-up to sun-down

membrane over spring clip

Spring clip fastening

Intermediate rows of fasteners per FM1-90 prior to be being stripped

Ready for day 2 at sun up. Andrew and Dillon

Pushing off the dew before stretching out the first day's material

A finished metal edge. sealed much like the above pic description.

crimping the NW face to the cleat.

Finished metal from the top

at least 40 self tapping metal screws in each 10' piece of cleat

Secondary membrane piece over the spring clip cleat

VB wrapped up the side of the wood.

Installing a PS & aluminum faced "Window wrap" over the wood. This will seal off on the metal panels on the far side and the plastic on the interior.

An amazing final dump that you had to see to appreciate.

I think this was the last pic before going down the ladder

Two sides tied onto an adjacent roof that we did last year. There is WCO under the bottom membrane, WCO between the two membranes and bar is sealed. Vapor can not come from inside, or from under the other roof membrane.

egg Said: Mike, why are you 1000 miles away?

cuz 'ats 'bout how fur LA (Lower Alabama) is from home

egg Said: why was the iso frozen in a solid block in Alabama with an assumed ambient temperature too high for that

This was a freezer application. The original construction was completely screwed. Freezer must be thoroughly seeled. The vapor barrier on a freezer is the roof membrane. In this case, the walls were not sealed and vapor transmission was occuring around all perimeters. Additionally, a section had blown off earlier in the year during a storm. Even moreso, the doors to the freezer were not well maintaned, sealed or kept closed, so a good deal of that hot, humid, bakery in Alabama air was coming through the deck.

To correct, we sealed the new insulation system from top and bottom, and sealed the insulated wall panels as well by using a combination of plastic vapor barrier on the deck and peel-n-stick over the walls.

(You've not gone on a wild goose chase until you've tried to find I/W Shield in Lower Alabama.)

egg Said: and are you augmenting your crew with local tradesmen or importing the works?

Just me & five of our finest from home.

When we found no solit perimeter anchor point, frozen solid panel cores, etc. we had to come up with a solid anchoring, and this was the wood installed, prior to being fastened. 2x8 across the top that is screwed to a 2x6 pushed against the wall, which is anchored by a 2x4 screwed to the deck. The 2x8 will also be capped with metal that is screwed to the nailer and the face of the insulated panel.

First 20 square removed, clean-up in progress and walls being constructed. Jason & Andrew

Bill

Box we built to handle debris. There was no aaccess to this roof. Power lines would not allow a crane. Ammonia lines visible under the box, would not allow a chute. This worked out really well.

Egg You are making this way more complicated than it needs to be. The article says the testing was conducted in 2008. Now do the math....going back 39 years would date these PMR roof installations back to 1969. Other than BUR, which of the other single ply membranes were available in the US????? My first encounter with a DOW IRMA spec was around 1978........asphalt and perforated organic felts with the EPS mopped in with dead (chilled) asphalt...then loose rock ballast as a final surfacing. The EPS soaked up water and held it like a sponge...rotted the BUR and the failures ensued. Remember, unlike coal tar, asphalt has a lighter molecular weight than water. When asphalt is in a constant state of water exposure.....rotting becomes a progressive failure mechanism in the bitumen. If UV exposure is added to the situation, the progression of failure accelerates. SBS ans SEBS both have a higher molecular weight compared to water. But with bituminous, products the more flexible (via polymer phased inversion) they are made, the more sensitive to UV.

Boy I really went on a tangent there!

Now lets get back on track here... The technology of single ply membranes back even 15 years ago, does not compare to what is available today. So....I pose a question to you.......is what your reading in the article really making you question what you think you know or does the propaganda just have your head spinning. I think the reality is.....you only like to see me spout off!

Again, I'm not really against the PMR specification.......I just have a hard time with the means of justification specific to the time lines used in the article for promoting the specification. I have actually had a very positive history with hot rubberized asphalt in protected membrane applications on sub grade waterproofing and/or plaza deck installations.

Did the light bulb flash on yet? If not, give me a call and we can peel the onion back a little further .....my fingers are getting tired.

Thanks for responding to that, Bob. As you can deduce from my having missed the connection of UL 1256 to iso, there is a reason the onion makes me cry. I've never been able to access, understand, and retain much of the testing criteria from UL and FM. I do understand that Factory Mutual evolved from risk retention groups (a term that is now used for an entirely breed of cat bearing no relation to the real deal) and frequently rue the hours not spent pouring over the science.

What made me curious about proposal number three is that they called out the rubberized asphalt membrane as part of their 39-yr. system package. What would that 39 years (assuming their primary objective is to promote the insulation) have become had they proposed using one of the other membranes in the list as a substitute for the rubberized asphalt. 39 years also?

I know that standard BUR is more brittle and can also be subject to bio-degradation if placed under green systems (although I have done two in the past, surfaced with 1 1/2 inch smooth river rock before anything was placed above them and it's been nearly 30 years now with no problems that I know of.) Wouldn't other membranes last just as well in those circumstances and show off just as well or better on their life-cycle chart?

Egg,

The answer is in my post.....because of UL 1256 testing criteria and the simplicity and cost factor....ISO is USUALLY the winner.

As far as the URL you directed me to, there is no 39 year spec ....anticipated service life is what is being portrayed. Again, you have to consider its origin and author/s. I believe that anything that involves "Life Cycle Cost" is usually based on biased and subjective BS and serves only as marketing propaganda . The service life of a any roof system compared to another is not an exact science as many would like to think. I could find a high quality roof system to specify, and I can find a bunch of guys that could screw the installation up. Ultimately, the "science" of life cycle costing does not take into account the human element of installation, let alone proactive maintenance.

I cut my teeth in BUR and SBS and with the petroleum industry's ever increasing ability to crack out more of the marketable light oil fractions out of the crude, what the roofing industry gets just ain't what it used to be. My comfort level with bituminous products is beginning to wane. I guess a good rubberized asphalt would be better than a standard blown asphalt product as long as it was completely protected from UV exposure, such as in a PMR or sub grade waterproofing. XPS would be the insulation of choice in either one of those scenarios.

Regards, BP