extream frost in the attic with new roof

Hello all, I'm new to this site and posting I hope I do it correct. 4 years ago had a neighbor contact me and they needed a new roof. We installed a 3D roof shingle from Tamco and changed the box vents to a OC ridge vent.the home is a two story approximately 1700 Square Feet 2 years in the call came that the roof was leaking, went to investigate and found frost in the attic. noticed that the soffit vents were all closed with insulation. The bath vents were in the attic. Insulation is rolled bats 10 in thick. This home has two gable end vents on the ends and a 4/12 pitch on the back and 6 /12 on the front with 1/2 the front is covered in vaulted ceilings that do not have vent chutes. We went into the attic the 2nd year and installed the stryo chutes in the openings that were open over 3/4 of the back and 1/2 the front. Installed the bath vent out the gable ends. The home does not have heat in the attic, it has a vent pipe for the furnace and plumbing in the attic space. This year cold and snow came and frost again. Here in central Indiana, any help would be greatly appreciated.

IF you install 8 vents in the roof, and you still have the ridge vent, and the ridge-vent does have a slot cut in it, ALL you will be doing is venting from the roof louvers to the ridge vent. That is a short circuit too. Tell the guy there is only one way to do it, and that is correct way. Have him get on here and read what we wrote for you. I don't know sometimes why I tell people what is going on if they don't want to listen. I realize it is not you but him, but it ticks me off! Carry on! Old School

Thank you OS for all the information, the owner would like for me to install the old box vents back in the rear of the roof deck it had 8 of them in the back. so I will be working on this this summer and let you know what we end up doing. Again that you all for your feed back.

Thank you OS for all the information, the owner would like for me to install the old box vents back in the rear of the roof deck it had 8 of them in the back. so I will be working on this this summer and let you know what we end up doing. Again that you all for your feed back.

Thank you OS for all the information, the owner would like for me to install the old box vents back in the rear of the roof deck it had 8 of them in the back. so I will be working on this this summer and let you know what we end up doing. Again that you all for your feed back.

twill59 Said: Well you might think. But like I say about modern carpenters, their job is to cut lumber and nail it together. Assemble a building and move on.

How that building ultimately breathers/ operates, well theres a little more to it than some center vent and just any ridge vent

One of my objectives is to satisfy warranty requirements. I let the owner/ buyer know that if there is not minimum ventilation. ( Whether it is truth or fallacy as to premature shingle failure, it is indeed an out for the shingle manufacturers.) (Another topic)

Also Mold is another maybe can be harmful kind of thing. Ive seen lots and lots and lots of mold with no ill people living in the house.

The other objectives to consider are condensation, (stains), damaged sheathing, in efficient insulation, (strained mechanicals/ higher heating & cooling costs). Interior comfort is a biggie for many also.

All of these items have gotten me lots of positive feedback from customers who received much more than shingles off/ shingles on.

I have to move away from price shoppers to have this conversation. Building inspectors, builders and tradesmen are useless too.

I see lots of ventilation problems. I did a re-roof last year that had been repaired multiple times. The black mammy was everywhere...lol. The people living in the home told me, they had the roof "fixed" multiple times but it always started leaking again down the road.

Now... the shingles were n bad shape no doubt. However, what I found was, a bathroom exhausting into the attic. The sheeting was toast right above, & you could see where condensation had been collecting for years, & running down a truss.

I've actually run into this a number of times over the years but, this one was probably the worst I've seen.

Also, most of the re-roofs I do, don't have adequate ventilation for the attic. Most simply have gable vents, if that. Right, wrong, or somewhere in between.... every re-roof I do gets added attic ventilation. Usually ridge vent. Makes the most sense to me, & seems to be the best bang for the buck. I don't even usually break it down price wise. It's just part of the installation, & included in the total price.

Well you might think. But like I say about modern carpenters, their job is to cut lumber and nail it together. Assemble a building and move on.

How that building ultimately breathers/ operates, well there's a little more to it than some center vent and just any ridge vent

One of my objectives is to satisfy warranty requirements. I let the owner/ buyer know that if there is not minimum ventilation. ( Whether it is truth or fallacy as to premature shingle failure, it is indeed an out for the shingle manufacturers.) (Another topic)

Also Mold is another maybe can be harmful kind of thing. I've seen lots and lots and lots of mold with no ill people living in the house.

The other objectives to consider are condensation, (stains), damaged sheathing, in efficient insulation, (strained mechanicals/ higher heating & cooling costs). Interior comfort is a biggie for many also.

All of these items have gotten me lots of positive feedback from customers who received much more than "shingles off/ shingles on".

I have to move away from price shoppers to have this conversation. Building inspectors, builders and tradesmen are useless too.

twill59 Said:

TomB Said: We take out over-the-counter roof permits all the time and venting is never required or even mentiond, let alone specified, by the building departments.

There you go

"Not sure what you mean TomB.

Are you saying....an HVAC contractor has to spell out his ventilation plan when he gets a permit to....for example, replace a furnace? Change a filter?

At what point does the HVAC person deal with the attic ventilation?"

What I meant was - That was a good example of how, when a roofer applies for a re-roof permit, HVAC, (i.e., attic ventilation), is not generally a consideration. However, I will point out that in a particular municipality we work in, the bldg. dept requires all smoke alarms and C02 detectors are brought up to current codes when re-roofing or remodeling. Possibly they should include attic ventilation as well.....

Thanks again to egg. Apologies for my typical brevity, (& laziness, so-to-speak), as I may rely a bit on the hopes egg is there to extrapolate & eloquently expand.

One of the most successful (?) contractors in this area does not inspect any attics. There's no time running 5-6 leads per day to figure any of this out. Not only are they El Cheapo, but you guessed it.......CertainTeed Select ShingleMaster. Volume solves everything in the world of Roofing QC ;)

(I'm sure O/C and Gaf and IKO could not care less too)

But yes I ought to get a copy of their contract and find the part about ventilation exclusions (like ice dams) and paste it onto mine. Maybe CertainTeed could even provide this?

Just a little common sense ought to keep you out of trouble tho. Air in/ air out. More in than out . Heat loss? Yes it's bad thing....(who'd a thunk while pounding shingles over a flawed attic?) Or replacing plywood over a bare ceiling? Or blowing moisture into the attic, etc etc

3 things have to align....Contractor has to care. Workers have to care. Homeowner has to care. Otherwise it's.....shingles on/ shingles off. Let's do 2 today!

Andy Schindler posted the comment of a lifetime here recently: The hardest part about selling roofs, was getting the owner to care about his roof as much as I do

One of the most successful (?) contractors in this area does not inspect any attics. There's no time running 5-6 leads per day to figure any of this out. Not only are they El Cheapo, but you guessed it.......CertainTeed Select ShingleMaster. Volume solves everything in the world of Roofing QC ;)

(I'm sure O/C and Gaf and IKO could not care less too)

But yes I ought to get a copy of their contract and find the part about ventilation exclusions (like ice dams) and paste it onto mine. Maybe CertainTeed could even provide this?

Just a little common sense ought to keep you out of trouble tho. Air in/ air out. More in than out . Heat loss? Yes it's bad thing....(who'd a thunk while pounding shingles over a flawed attic?) Or replacing plywood over a bare ceiling? Or blowing moisture into the attic, etc etc

3 things have to align....Contractor has to care. Workers have to care. Homeowner has to care. Otherwise it's.....shingles on/ shingles off. Let's do 2 today!

Andy Schindler posted the comment of a lifetime here recently: The hardest part about selling roofs, was getting the owner to care about his roof as much as I do

Thanks egg for clarifying, I don't think you went out on a limb. That made a huge difference in my understanding of what TomB is trying to say.

Shingles off/ Shingles on is still the #1 roofing method here egg. It has not changed totally to ventilation "science" LOL I kind of refer to it as common sense......that alone would keep most anyone out of court. The still most preferred method is to go out of business. I don't know if "Best Practices" is defensible in court. Will Air Vent or CertainTeed show up on anyone's behalf?

For me, ventilation is not just an up sell. It's a problem solver, and as far as I am concerned, a call back eliminator. (see original Poster)

OTOH, I have lost a LOT of jobs as potential customers think I am just trying to rip them off, especially since almost no one else is "educating" them (shingles off/ shingles on!) I could even be more on board with that until I see that most of these clowns are just installing unvented ridge vent anyways! (or center vent soffit) Or ridge vent that is just so poorly designed it does not work well, if at all. Or --- any number of things.

OTOH again, I've seen an attic or 2 where the venting is theoretically wrong, but the shingles lasted almost 30 yrs. and the lumber/ sheathing is as pristine as the day it was installed (Do I try to upsell these folks? Hell no!)

I guess if I was chasing storms (shingles off / shingles on!) I'd be inclined to rush through roof jobs and do as many as possible. In my little world getting enough jobs has almost always been a struggle and my reputation is not built on price -----so it's worth it to me, and hopefully my customers to give their roof system my best shot.

Going out on a bit of a limb here as I wouldn't want to assume I know exactly what TomB is thinking, but here goes:

Time was that the roofers' domain was to make sure things didn't leak from weather factors, although trapped moisture was always part of that domain. Not meaning any offense to my own trade, which I love and respect, we were generally hard-working guys who put four nails in a shingle, laid out for shakes and tile and fastened everything properly, and mopped our hot asphalt with the right coverage and set our rolls on the right lines. We generally installed metal flashings provided by others, most often sheet metal contractors, who usually had bigger shops with better-trained personnel, much more expensive equipment, and worked less hard for more money. Actually, most sheetmetal men I met were such an annoyance that they drove me into taking control of roof metal myself, something I have never regretted for one single instance.

But the SMACNA specs traditionally put roofing specs to shame in just about every way imagineable and there was also a notable bias towards mathematics, engineering, and environmental aspects of the buildings, especially in commercial work and when buildings became so air-tight that venting became a huge issue, sheetmetal contractors (HVAC) were already there and were the first link to architects and energy consultants when it came to putting hard numbers to building envelopes. For those of us who tinker with this stuff as ancillary aspects of our traditional roofing work, what do we do? Go around and add up intake capacity, calculate based on the 1/150 or 1/300 rule provided by others in a more ivory tower strata of construction, and try to keep up with the times.

Building departments rely heavily on calcs shown on prints when they are issuing permits for new work and they don't do these calcs themselves, they insist that they be done by a recognized entity specializing in energy calcs. They don't meddle with existing buildings, especially residential, any more than they tell you that you are going to have to change out all your windows or upgrade your insulation. In fact, here they say if you are going to tamper with the insulation you have to bring it up to current code standards, but if you leave it as-is you are exempt.

What Tom is saying, I think, is that if we leave things as-is we are definitely in the clear, but if we presume to upgrade and use our own specs to achieve the upgrade we become liable for science. Most if not all of us have no certification from any exalted halls of learning to qualify us to take this risk. That's all. Yeah, we have our feet on the ground and by paying attention to the knowledge that's out there, listening to the manufacturer requirements and extrapolating from them, reading the building codes and extrapolating from them, observing the practical consequences of various materials and treatments and avoiding obvious mistakes, we are probably on solid ground, at least enough to avoid litigation. But if someone wants to litigate, and some do, are even looking for the chance, then let me tell you...common sense goes out-the-window and if you generated a spec which for some reason fails to perform, you are potentially exposed to huge consequential damages. jmho. fwiw.

So I guess what I'm saying is this: At what point does the HVAC man arrive at the hatch going into the attic and announce "I'm HERE!"....and proceed to start the venting inspection? Or does he start on the roof cutting in vents? At the soffit?

I've looked in the phone book .....no HVAC companies advertising "Attic Ventilation"

Should I try the internet?

TomB Said: We take out over-the-counter roof permits all the time and venting is never required or even mentiond, let alone specified, by the building departments.

There you go

Not sure what you mean TomB.

Are you saying....an HVAC contractor has to spell out his ventilation plan when he gets a permit to....for example, replace a furnace? Change a filter?

At what point does the HVAC person deal with the attic ventilation?

"We take out over-the-counter roof permits all the time and venting is never required or even mentiond, let alone specified, by the building departments."

There you go