Days of old: 2006

A portion of a significant thread I would like to resurrect. Had to cut it into portions and I hope they fit. I'll take it down or Steve can if Mr. Hicks has any objection. A lot of work went into the original posts between Chipper and Mike (and others, but principally them)

Here goes...

Rocky,

chipper was a very capable contractor. I did not specifically recall this conversation, but I think he may have simply been doing so to have an interesting thread, or maybe it was when he first showed up and was testing me.... I just don't recall. But he had licenses from several materials that were difficult to obtain, a spray rig that wasn't a "if you can see it, foam it" rig, and from what all I remember, he did real good work.

But thanks for the compliment.

I 'd like to know how life is going for Miscreant.

Anybody heard from him?

Gkrfg, still a rookie here but finding it hard not to get on. Hey, Is Chipper still around? Or did he go out of business after taking your advice, Mike. :laugh: :laugh: Seriously, I don't know that I would have had the patience to tackle all five questions in a single setting, like you did, Mike. I commend you and if I need advice I shall call upon you. I would have thought that, he, chipper, as a roofer and could have thought his way thru a couple of these projects. He must of had/has alot of confidence in you and values you opinion. To be at the top among peers. Booyaa.

The days of old. I remember this place being an addiction. It was the first forum I had ever experienced and I can recall some very emotional arguments about a couple different subjects. I recall getting so mad a couple of times by some of the things I read that I finally realized I was taking it too seriously and sometimes even personal and I'm sure it was all in my own head. I know my wife thought I was addicted and a little concerned about all of the time I would spend on here. The good old days of old. The forum has gone through a whole bunch of changes over the years but I could never stop visiting. I think that there is not as much useful information exchanged today compared to then but I think we were all new to this type of exchange and the novelty made it more stimulating and even exciting. It was great to feel that you weren't alone out there and the free exchange of ideas was very refreshing. I know I took a whole lot more from it than I was able to give. I look forward to more. Thanks for going through the trouble.

Maybe the only two to make a reply, but not the only two to read. Apparently +/- 130 have read (or at least considered the prospect of reading lol)

I have been going through a lot of older files and I'm not knocking the present but I was struck by how much care and energy was expended back then. I'll take another run at locating the info you refer to on the business side, but it's not going to be easy to get at since it's not on my current hard drive.

Thanks egg, though we might be the only two people that read it. LOL

I so wish I had saved a lot of the stuff I wrote, particularly on overhead and mgmt so I could hand my son a manual and say "read this first, then we'll talk".

Now that was dedication, Mike. Thanks all over again for the effort you put in back then.

End:

Roof 4: Highly profitable manufacturer who has a ballasted epdm roof that has gone bad. Old neoprene flashings are gone and splits everywhere. It's an old GY PE rail system with splits all under the rails at the perimeters. Has 1" perlite over steel deck. Centered drained with 2' walls all around. Over production area that has no insulation. Assembly line equipment below with a wet, steamy environment. No issues with damaging inventory/product. They've quit running heat and air due to the lack of thermal value. Just ripped and replaced old trocal roof about 16 years ago and most of the deck was replaced at that time. Not much equipment and limited traffic. 200 squares with 1/8" slope. What do you recommend.

4. Side walls are masonry on two sides and the other two sides tie into pre-eng rpanel walls which all extend above the roof 2'. No wynders so to speak but on the two metal sides there are large overhead door openings where air can get into unconditioned areas. I'll bet they'd consider conditioning if it was cost effective. It's been without since the 60s but is really uncomfortable in the heat of the summer and cold of the winter.

This one must come off to the deck. Inspect the deck, repair/replace as needed. Install a good vapor barrier over the deck. Recommend at least 2 layers of 1.5” iso, and would prefer 2 layers of 2”. Would offer a Fibertite option and a two ply modified. Again Siplast or Derbigum. There is a huge difference in quality among mod bits. I really believe these two are the top of the heap in their respective product classes, with the difference between Siplast and other SBS’s being truly substantial.

5. With a 58" sheet, the sheet won't be fastened into the purlins, correct? Will FTR have specific requirements for pull outs? 400# move to 16" with #10? 350# to 12" with #12? 300# on 9" with #14? etc.

Doesn't Sarnafil manufacture a sheet for purlin attachment applications?

This is why I recommend the Fibertite. Their narrow sheet means more fasteners. A fully adhered system would really be the cat’s meow, but it does get expensive. The system I described has proven very successful for me, but as I said below, there is no FM approval on the particular system.

Carlisle, Sarnafil, and probably some others offer systems that have been FM tested, and require fastening into the purlins. This is a REAL HASSLE after the roof is covered with insulation. Will your guys take out the fasteners that miss the purlins, or take a “good enough” attitude. Larger sheets on lighter gauge metal roofs really scare me. Too much chance for wind flutter and fastener loosening.

Regarding the fastener pullout requirements of Fibertite?????? I guess I have enough experience with the product that they trust my judgement. That’s a non-transferable advantage, I know, but it’s the truth.

A link to a little something I wrote that they put in their debut newsletter:

http://seamannewsroom.com/newsreleases/ft_news_v1_iss1.pdf

Part 5:

Long sloping Butler trapezoidal panel that runs into a stainless gutter. The back side of the gutter ties into a parapet wall which has some precast lintels. One of the owner's engineers came in and said lets just line it with rubber. I say fine I'll get a rubber guy to get his stamp of approval; thus, the Carlisle Tech Rep. Lots of transitions in gutter and all gutter joints are welded. Gutter is acting as the expansion joint between the Butler roof and the rear masonry parapet wall. Vital equipment inside and below the gutter. We have strong evidence that gutter welds are breaking and have found small pen holes near the joints. The metal roof doesn't appear to be the problem. We think it is in the gutter and along the parapet wall. We have tried every type of coating, mastic, caulk you can imagine on the stainless but nothing stays even after priming. The only thing we have had success with is Gardner/Gibson Liqued Neoprene (502?) over a surface primed with HP-250 of all things. Very puzzling problem.

Have you considered that some of the problem could be condensation on the gutter? I see this frequently on metal gutters centered between two heated buildings. If it is, you really need to insulate the gutter, then flash it in. Of course you need a big gutter to insulate from the outside, therefore sprayed urethane foam on the inside, coated with a vapor resistant coating is another good option, both of which we have had to do, and both will work. I’m not saying the gutter isn’t leaking, but it would be embarrassing to spend big money on the lining and still have drips showing up.

Part 6:

Oh yea. As for your questions: Roof 1: Strip mall/shopping center with an original Discount store as the anchor store. Private owner who is leasing to Walmart. Unlike the new big boxes, store has the original 4 ply bur over 2" iso and 1" fg. Roof is laying nice with very little blistering or splitting. Has a good amount of angel-hairing. Lease is soon to be up on the Discount store (who typically just goes and builds a big box when they want) and they are experiencing some leaks and have for several years. Customer not happy but owner doesn't want to reroof if customer is moving out. Roof is 20 years old and I don't know how or if they have taken advantage of a depreciation schedule. About 300 squares, single slope to gutter, average wall hgt is 2', (8) 6x hvac units all internal leads, 4 pipes, one exhaust unit, and two large pitch pans for satellites. 1.a. glass is 5% wet. or Glass is 30% wet. b. Owner has some maintenance guys who does nothing but screw things up for roofers but they are good at everything else. Owners would love to save money and get the most for the least. The facility will be there for years and they will try to find a tenant should the big horse moves out.

First I would tear out the wet and replace, if it’s 5% wet. If it’s 30% wet, then I would recommend removing the entire BUR and Glass. Leave the ISO, and install a second layer of 2” iso over the existing to bring this roof system up to acceptable R-value levels. In this type of construction, the roof is the major source of energy loss and an energy evaluation will certainly show the owner payback over the life of the roof in a long term ownership situation. Even if the tenant pays utilities, lower operating costs should allow the owner additional leverage during lease negotiations, and they will have a better building to pass on to their heirs.

For a membrane system, I would probably present a “good, better, best” scenario.

Good - Manville (cooley) PVC, or m-f base sheet, smooth modified, coating. The modified providing the opportunity for the owner maintenance staff to repair minor leaks with a bucket of Karnak and glass mesh, which is not an option on the Manville.

Better – Mechanically fastened Fibertite, or fully adhered 60 mil epdm. I just figured a 200 square job and there was just 500 bucks between the two systems. Material is lower on the epdm, but the labor is higher.

Best – M-F base sheet, 2 plies of Derbigum GP, or Siplast 20/30 system. I believe the Derbigum in a 30 year roof, easy, as long as it remains coated. If the Siplast roof is coated with Fibered aluminum after granule loss has begun around year 15, I also believe this will be a very long lived system. And once again, the mod bits offer the advantage of maintainability by the owners own personel, on a limited basis.

Part 4:

MikeH Friday March 17 2006

Good stuff MikeH. When and where would you recommend Sarnafil? It is somewhat close in price to Fibertite. Actually, I think that Sarnafil's 60 list is maybe less that Fibertite's 3?mil list. I've got a buddy who just finished installing about 300sq of Ftite and said he really liked the membrane but was tough to weld w/ his varimat. The membrane continually tried to wrinkle since it was so light and flexible.

Chipper, since I have no idea what you would pay for Fibertite and Sarnafil, that’s a tough one for me. As an applicator of both, I believe they are both good products, but I have had problems with one, and not the other. Selling one over the other would not be about price to me. As the Fibertite website says “Thicker isn’t better. Better is better.”

As far as how they weld, I honestly believe that welding any thermoplastic membrane comes down to familiarity. My guys don’t like welding TPO, but TPO welders won’t like Fibertite. A Bobcat operator doesn’t like a Gehl, and a Gehl operator doesn’t like a Bobcat………. You know what I mean? The accessories, particularly the unsupported flashings of Fibertite are very nice, workable, etc. Fibertite does have it’s idiosyncrasies but I don’t think they are any more or less than any other. Wrinkles in the seam can happen but once the touch is perfected, it’s like any other.

Tell me more about lining gutters with Ftite components. I've got a project we have an approval on to line a stainless steel gutter. The only mfg to show up to look at the project and make recommendations was Carlisle. He suggested lining with epdm. Since there are several offsets in the gutters and where the gutter ties into the parapet wall, I recommended using TPO so that we could fasten tpo clad metal at the small transitions and weld the sheet to them to secure. I wish I could show some photos or a detail but I don't have access to either. I'll try to explain a bit better.

I do not think the idea of flashing clad metal is a good idea. Sorry, but if the gutter is moving, that movement will transfer through your clad metal as well, leaving a tear every 10’. TPO is also so stiff that working it into the transitions would be fairly difficult.

Honestly, I think EPDM is probably the best choice. Easy workability, available in long sheets. If your guys are experienced with adhered epdm this is a good option. Would Fibertite be better? Sure, no glue, flatter seams, welded transitions to drain inserts…………. It would be good, but if you don’t know the product, why learn on something so technical?

Part 3:

Chipper - Friday, March 17, 2006

Good stuff MikeH. When and where would you recommend Sarnafil? It is somewhat close in price to Fibertite. Actually, I think that Sarnafil's 60 list is maybe less that Fibertite's 3?mil list. I've got a buddy who just finished installing about 300sq of Ftite and said he really liked the membrane but was tough to weld w/ his varimat. The membrane continually tried to wrinkle since it was so light and flexible.

Tell me more about lining gutters with Ftite components. I've got a project we have an approval on to line a stainless steel gutter. The only mfg to show up to look at the project and make recommendations was Carlisle. He suggested lining with epdm. Since there are several offsets in the gutters and where the gutter ties into the parapet wall, I recommended using TPO so that we could fasten tpo clad metal at the small transitions and weld the sheet to them to secure. I wish I could show some photos or a detail but I don't have access to either. I'll try to explain a bit better.

Long sloping Butler trapezoidal panel that runs into a stainless gutter. The back side of the gutter ties into a parapet wall which has some precast lintels. One of the owner's engineers came in and said lets just line it with rubber. I say fine I'll get a rubber guy to get his stamp of approval; thus, the Carlisle Tech Rep. Lots of transitions in gutter and all gutter joints are welded. Gutter is acting as the expansion joint between the Butler roof and the rear masonry parapet wall. Vital equipment inside and below the gutter. We have strong evidence that gutter welds are breaking and have found small pen holes near the joints. The metal roof doesn't appear to be the problem. We think it is in the gutter and along the parapet wall. We have tried every type of coating, mastic, caulk you can imagine on the stainless but nothing stays even after priming. The only thing we have had success with is Gardner/Gibson Liqued Neoprene (502?) over a surface primed with HP-250 of all things. Very puzzling problem. Oh yea. As for your questions: 1.a. glass is 5% wet. or Glass is 30% wet. b. Owner has some maintenance guys who does nothing but screw things up for roofers but they are good at everything else. Owners would love to save money and get the most for the least. The facility will be there for years and they will try to find a tenant should the big horse moves out.

4. Side walls are masonry on two sides and the other two sides tie into pre-eng rpanel walls which all extend above the roof 2'. No wynders so to speak but on the two metal sides there are large overhead door openings where air can get into unconditioned areas. I'll bet they'd consider conditioning if it was cost effective. It's been without since the 60s but is really uncomfortable in the heat of the summer and cold of the winter.

5. With a 58" sheet, the sheet won't be fastened into the purlins, correct? Will FTR have specific requirements for pull outs? 400# move to 16" with #10? 350# to 12" with #12? 300# on 9" with #14? etc.

Doesn't Sarnafil manufacture a sheet for purlin attachment applications?

Part 2:

MikeH - Friday, March 17, 2006

Chipper

Roof 1: Strip mall/shopping center with an original Discount store as the anchor store. Private owner who is leasing to Walmart. Unlike the new big boxes, store has the original 4 ply bur over 2" iso and 1" fg. Roof is laying nice with very little blistering or splitting. Has a good amount of angel-hairing. Lease is soon to be up on the Discount store (who typically just goes and builds a big box when they want) and they are experiencing some leaks and have for several years. Customer not happy but owner doesn't want to reroof if customer is moving out. Roof is 20 years old and I don't know how or if they have taken advantage of a depreciation schedule. About 300 squares, single slope to gutter, average wall hgt is 2', (8) 6x hvac units all internal leads, 4 pipes, one exhaust unit, and two large pitch pans for satellites.

Answer: How wet is the glass? How old is the owner, what is their future plan for the building in 10 and 20 years? Do they want any maintenance over the next 20 years?

Roof 2: Walmart Supercenter with Stevens roof that has failed. 3" iso, gazillion skylights and hvac's, about 1400sq. You know they are looking for roof system that will offer great savings but be somewhat trouble free since they rarely do any maintenance.

Answer: Manville PVC (cooley) . It’s white, it’s cheap, it’s proven. Remove the current membrane, and install it directly over the existing ISO. If WM is inclined to do so, lay DensDeck or 1” iso over the old insulation surface, but that’s up to WM. Option for Fibertite, but I doubt they’ll bite on it.

Roof 3: Textile mill with sewing machinery, production, and inventory below. Original BUR over gyp planking with webbed joists. Several attempts to built back up with additional moppings. Has a 1" perlite base and is fairly dry. There are some blisters and there is a low area where the water drains to the rear. Scuppers are the source of water releif and they are about 3 inches too high to get all of the water off. Rear area needs drains. Roof is many years old and owner is a non-profit with limited budget. 200 squares, limited equipment, limited traffic, 2' parapet walls all around. What system? Answer: Cut out blisters. Add drains as needed. Lower scuppers to create a sump. Prime and torch two layers of the cheapest APP I am comfortable with. Coat with non-fibered alum. Easy to repair and maintain. Fast, cheap installation but still a good roof. Details should be good quality, but need not be over engineered. They won’t spend a mint, but it’s a proven 20 year performer, and if they are willing to coat it a couple times (even with their own people) maybe they will get 30 years. Will cost a little more than a recover with a cheap single ply, but in the long run, they will spend a lot less, which should be a good stewardship decision for a non-profit.

Roof 4: Highly profitable manufacturer who has a ballasted epdm roof that has gone bad. Old neoprene flashings are gone and splits everywhere. It's an old GY PE rail system with splits all under the rails at the perimeters. Has 1" perlite over steel deck. Centered drained with 2' walls all around. Over production area that has no insulation. Assembly line equipment below with a wet, steamy environment. No issues with damaging inventory/product. They've quit running heat and air due to the lack of thermal value. Just ripped and replaced old trocal roof about 16 years ago and most of the deck was replaced at that time. Not much equipment and limited traffic. 200 squares with 1/8" slope. What do you recommend.

Answer: What is the sidewall construction, are there lots of windows, what is the ceiling height, where are the windows located (in terms of height) on the vertical wall? Will they start running heat and air if they have R-value, and do they want it?

Roof 5: Highly profitable manufacturer with warehouse/storage facility that is a pre-eng building. Metal R-panel roof with plastic skylights. Roof is about 30 years old and has been coated with alum once. No issues with damaging inventory/product. Lots of building movement. Screws backing out all over. Lots of traffic with bent/cracked ribs from not walking in flutes. Is gabled with gutters at both edges and typical rakes. Good slope. There is one section that ties into another building where there is an internal gutter between them. The gutter has been a source of leaks for a while. No roof equipment and standard insulation inside. 400 squares. Where do you go with this roof?

Answer: The existing roof becomes my new roof deck. Cover skylights with 18 ga. plate steel and fasten to roof. Fill between ribs with 1# EPS. Overlay 1.5” iso, or more if R-value is desired. Remove external gutters and install new wood nailer fastened to structural at the edge. Install mechanically fastened Fibertite, in 56” width fastened 12” o.c. and picture framed with 2- 28” wide rolls. Cut metal roof edge to flush with the internal gutter on the side to be roofed. Back out fasteners along the edge of the adjacent roof. Line gutter with Fibertite membrane. Install a metal drain tube into downs, that is soldered to an FTR coated flat panel to lay in the gutter. Prior to inserting tube, one full tube of Water-cut-off installed where it will form a tight gasket when tube is fastened in place. Weld Fibertite gutter material to the coated tube flange. Extend gutter membrane under the adjacent metal roof panels, and install WCO or other butyl sealant under the panels along the fastener line prior to refastening. Other drip, wall and flashing details per typical Fibertite installation. Special attention to perimeter fastening details. Nothing is nailed. Everything is screwed. Screws never overdriven. New 24 ga. shop formed apron gutter, Kynar to match building décor. Outside edge of Gutter and straps tie to vertical face of apron at a point a minimum of 1.5” lower than the deck flange. Install term-bar detal into the vertical face of the gutter. Maximum water height of a full gutter will not exceed the bottom edge of the term bar.

The narrow Fibertite membrane results in a much larger number of fasteners than a typical membrane that might be installed over a metal roof, and unless the metal roof is less than 24 ga, fastening into the panels will work very well. All wood on perimeters much be fastened into structural pulins. Keep the edge down, the roof will work great. Have done many of these, and a tornado that destroyed surrounding roof systems passed directly over one of them. It lifted the entire structure, snapped mezzanine tie rods, and dropped it back in place. The Fibertite survived unscathed, and uncompromised.

This system will not qualify for an FM rating if the customer is FM insured. But it will work better than most FM assemblies.

BTW, iffin y’all ain’t heard the news yet. Everythang we thunk we knew about FM is ‘bout to go flyin’ out the winduh. If you know any mfg employees involved in FM approval process, they ain’t happy campers right now.

Chipper - Wednesday, March 15, 2006

MikeH, Forgive me for picking the brain of a professional that has years of experience with cold application mods and thermos but I'd like to give you a few scenarios and see what the spec of your choice is. I'm with you in that there is no miracle cure for every roof application. Each roof has it's own specific needs. Not that the owner always tends to them the right way. Not looking for pricing, just what roof system/spec you'd prefer/recommend.

Roof 1: Strip mall/shopping center with an original Discount store as the anchor store. Private owner who is leasing to Walmart. Unlike the new big boxes, store has the original 4 ply bur over 2" iso and 1" fg. Roof is laying nice with very little blistering or splitting. Has a good amount of angel-hairing. Lease is soon to be up on the Discount store (who typically just goes and builds a big box when they want) and they are experiencing some leaks and have for several years. Customer not happy but owner doesn't want to reroof if customer is moving out. Roof is 20 years old and I don't know how or if they have taken advantage of a depreciation schedule. About 300 squares, single slope to gutter, average wall hgt is 2', (8) 6x hvac units all internal leads, 4 pipes, one exhaust unit, and two large pitch pans for satellites.

Roof 2: Walmart Supercenter with Stevens roof that has failed. 3" iso, gazillion skylights and hvac's, about 1400sq. You know they are looking for roof system that will offer great savings but be somewhat trouble free since they rarely do any maintenance.

Roof 3: Textile mill with sewing machinery, production, and inventory below. Original BUR over gyp planking with webbed joists. Several attempts to built back up with additional moppings. Has a 1" perlite base and is fairly dry. There are some blisters and there is a low area where the water drains to the rear. Scuppers are the source of water releif and they are about 3 inches too high to get all of the water off. Rear area needs drains. Roof is many years old and owner is a non-profit with limited budget. 200 squares, limited equipment, limited traffic, 2' parapet walls all around. What system?

Roof 4: Highly profitable manufacturer who has a ballasted epdm roof that has gone bad. Old neoprene flashings are gone and splits everywhere. It's an old GY PE rail system with splits all under the rails at the perimeters. Has 1" perlite over steel deck. Centered drained with 2' walls all around. Over production area that has no insulation. Assembly line equipment below with a wet, steamy environment. No issues with damaging inventory/product. They've quit running heat and air due to the lack of thermal value. Just ripped and replaced old trocal roof about 16 years ago and most of the deck was replaced at that time. Not much equipment and limited traffic. 200 squares with 1/8" slope. What do you recommend.

Roof 5: Highly profitable manufacturer with warehouse/storage facility that is a pre-eng building. Metal R-panel roof with plastic skylights. Roof is about 30 years old and has been coated with alum once. No issues with damaging inventory/product. Lots of building movement. Screws backing out all over. Lots of traffic with bent/cracked ribs from not walking in flutes. Is gabled with gutters at both edges and typical rakes. Good slope. There is one section that ties into another building where there is an internal gutter between them. The gutter has been a source of leaks for a while. No roof equipment and standard insulation inside. 400 squares. Where do you go with this roof?

Look forward to your response.