All USA Homeowners are Pro Choice!

I agree that passing a "law" everytime someone gets exited or existing laws are not enforced, (which is what is typically the case), is just plain idiotic & an unbelievable waste of time & $.....But that's how we roll here in the good ole USA......

To take it a step further; I believe we tend to make existing laws disingenuous by continuing to come up with "laws" of similar content/function....and then not enforce those either.... :blink:

Larry: This seems to turn into a Union vs. Non Union argument to some degree. Which it really is not. (Think Dubya and you are either "for" or "against" the USA if you don't agree with him)

I don't see any sense of "fairness" coming out of either side of that argument. Either Unionism or a continued spiral into lower wages and benefits for this industry.

The middle ground is already on the books and not enforced: The IRS Sub-Contractor requirements. Doing a Nancy Pelosi and passing more laws no one will read, (or adhere to), is simply passing law #1,000,003 in this over burdened country.

I am a Dinosaur

The only reason one would misrepresent employees as "subs" is to cheat...That's greed....That's just a dinosaur's opinion though...

I am a roofer as well as a roofing contractor. Twill is the same. We both work with our hands on the jobs. That is not to say that we are any better or worse than the contractors, but if someone doesn't show up, at least I can still do the roof myself. If I do and I don't like the way it looks, I can look in the mirror and know exactly who to blame. It cracks me up to hear the guys complain about the quality of the installations now. Hell, get less work and do it yourself or shut your mouth.

You've about got it GAK. Most CONtractors I see out there now I refer to as "Labor Brokers".

Might as well have a union rep (BA?) involved. At least the wages would be decent along w/ benefits than the slime out there now.

C'mon Larry "Home Builders Association"? Free marketers? After taking all of the government funding that fueled the housing bubble? Now they claim to be Free Market?

I saw that the worthless bums in the NAHB went ALL IN for the new OSHA Regs. Looking for more of that "Free Market" money I assume.

I am a Dinosaur

There appears to be 3 different business models in the residential roofing trade these days. The old fashioned model: Be established in a service area and try to sell work to owners that are in need of their services. Have a crew that are employees and fight to stay alive. (Only dinosauers use this method B) ) The middleman contractor: Be established in a service area and try to sell work to owners that are in need of their services. Have a crew that are subcontractors and avoid all of the taxes and insurance that are associated with a legal business. (This is probably the majority of companies) or was until the new model came on the scene 10 years ago or so....... The insurance leech: Subscribe to a hail alert service, set up a storefront office and send out a batch of canvassers/order takers to suck up as much business as possible, sub it out for cheap, take the insurance money and run. (Come on I can't believe everybody doesn't do it this way! ;) )

Am I missing anything?

What Rocky said!

Larry, what do you do for a living? Are you an insurance adjuster, a lobbyist, or a roofer?

Larry, I am dumb as a roofer comes. Sometimes it's difficult to understand and digest everything you wrote and I read it 4 or 5 times. Maybe there is an easier way to explain it for us knuckleheads. The way I see it, every damn union empolyee can go get his license, pay his workers comp, liability, pay his taxes and become a sub contractor, I dont care. It's the ones that don't pay that we need to keep an eye on. We have to do that at the kitchen table and inform and educate the HO on all the ills that come with hiring the guy that doesnt pay his dues. Excuse the pun. That being said we will always have those kind of "subs" and those kind of "HO's" that want to save(cheat) the buck out of you. I do agree big brother is to big and the last thing we need is more legislation. Ps... that "HO'S" is for home owners, not our ladies friends of the night. :laugh:

Again, two different issues here. No problems with unions, a number of good friends are union guys - many who, btw, often do side work for cash.

With issue 1 - ICEC, carpenters union reps who are also state legislators are attempting to take away a workers free enterprise / free market choice to work as an independent contractor (roofer, sider, union carpenter doing side work, off duty cops, real estate agents, etc.) and that's just wrong. If I pay an ee and a sub the same, union or non-union, and all other things are equal, there should be no problem.

Issue 2 - "No negotiating" Sympathy? For who? What "no negotiating" legislation does is take away from insureds the freedom to choose who will assist them and negotiate on their behalf to make the repairs. Professional independent contractors know better than anyone what needs repair and how much it will really cost (not included under the "professional" banner - low ball hacks, free estimate guys who don't understand the ins process, etc.) are frowned upon by the Property and casualty insurance industry because, according to them, those pro contractors charge too much for the repair work. What passage of "no negotiating" legislation does is take away HO's freedom of choice regarding who they want to work with. The HO then has only two choices, either agree to pay a 10% to 15% fee to a public adjuster - from the proceeds of the insurance claim, or trust that their insurance company adjuster will account for all of the damage and pay at real, true and accurate rates that a pro contractor would charge. Unfortunately for the homeowners whose choices become limited by law, they'll all end up being underpaid 99% of the time and never be able to afford to pay a pro contractor to do the work.

Greed is the strong desire to have more money then you could possibly need and that does not describe a pro contractor who does everything they can to make sure that their insured customers are paid everything their insurance company owes them relative to the premiums paid. Keep in mind that top 3RS trained contractors who achieve the highest payouts only receive those payouts because the insurance companies have agreed to them. That's called good business.

A contractor can't, on the one hand, complain about low ball competition not charging enough then turn around and say that contractors who expect their customers insurance companies to properly and fully pay their insurance claims are greedy!? doesn't make any sense...

It's called greed.....

I'm with ya GKRFG

Sounds like liability insurance. idk Larry, I am assuming that the majority, if not all of your work is insurance claims. I think that it will be hard to get a lot of sympathy here. Some of us here actually choose to have employees and we pay not only the minimum insurance allowed but also W/C an take on the tax burden associated with employees. I'm not sure that I follow what it is that scares you.

Of course I'm just a dumb roofer so please bear with while I try to understand.

Larry, I AM a union carpenter, and I have other union carpenters working for me. Union laborers too! We all work for a union leasing company, which is the equivalent of a private union hall. If we don't produce, we don't work; period! We get fair wages, and we get full benefits. We get overtime over 8 hours. We are VERY GOOD! We deserve everything we earn, and we make a hell of lot less than most of the teachers, or government workers or administrators. we work with our hands. What do you work with?

We run our business the right way and we are in it to make a profit. I don't give anything away, but I still work paycheck to paycheck. Life is tough out there, but let those of us that are leading to lead for gosh sakes.

I assume that P & C is Property and Casualty

All USA Homeowners are Pro Choice! As buyers, yes indeed they are.

As sellers of their own skills, and as owners of their own positions, I don't think so.

The majority of Americans are now Government employees. Not so sure that in their heart of hearts they'd jump and yell "PRO CHOICE" if it was the size of an oppressive government on the line.

I've been doing this long enough to know COPS who want to pay KASH, SCHOOLTEACHERS hiring uneducated laborers and other Rank and File Government Workers looking for tax cheats to help themselves out. (You HAVE to have a permit? Yeah Dickweed. I do)

Let alone the number of self employed construction GODS who cheat the payroll system and live well because their wife....has a government job.

Pro Choice? I know exactly what it is.

Kind of like Fair Trade and Free Trade. 2 totally different things.

I hate to sound like a dumbass but can someone tell me what P&C insurance is?