Why have wages in the private construction industry stalled over the past 20 yrs?

Example; circa 1990 in a particualr region; Private Davis-Bacon $15/hr...........$ 20-ish 2012 same region; Private Davis-Bacon $15-18/hr........$ 44/hr

I've always heard, " you can only have 2 out of 3" Price, quality and service. You are in good hands as long as your competitors embed themselves with giving price. Reputations aren't built on price. Just look at when the Florida marlins won the penant away from George Stienbrenner. I didn't say the Yankees, the marlins didn't play the Yankees, they played A fielded team.

In case I might be misunderstood, we few are bidding and standing on quailty, though each is relying on his lowlyest employee not to ruin our reps. The other 400+ only have price to offer. :(

I like what Tico has to say. Truth is I don't have more than 4-5 companies in competition with me. Hopefully, those 4-5 will will lower their prices and get into price wars so I won't have any competition then. The other 400+ roofing companies in this area bid way to low to be competition. It's a dog eat dog life at their level. :woohoo:

Sub contracting is the black eye to fair labor. It allows for the Jefe to have sub-standard help, at sub standard wages doing sub par work. Even if you've got your "salesman" watching the build, what the heck does A converted shoe, car, ins., culligan water sales staff know? For A company to be truly client oriented, and have proper mediation between the consumer, the office and the crew, then maybe theirs something that can be said for sub labor. Until then, the tables can't balance. I did work for one of the national companies. They paid me well to run jobs. As I settled in I also ran materials for the "sales" staff. Why? Because I walked every job. I spoke the language. I am A roofer/fully qualified carpenter/historical structural restorer. I was adept at my job. Had the "repair" super not made it impossible to keep up with running jobs I would still be on the clock with them. The subs liked the idea that I knew the trade, I spoke to them respectfully, and I would work side by side to teach them what their frigging boss, the jefe didn't know. I would crawl the roof with A tool bag. I was raised to teach how to fish, not feed. It is sincerely A smaller task than one would think.

Exactly Tico!....I haven't had the fortune/miss-fortune to actually live in a 3rd-world country, however, I think I can grasp the concept(s), you speak of.

So, it only makes sense that the workforce must be transformed from the present, short-sighted, non-U.S. allegient, opportunistic squall that it is, to a more assimmilating, long-term version.

Elliminate the sub-game and enforce employment laws.

The problem with the U.S., is that we say one thing, yet do the opposite, ("we", being the gooberment, as well as society).

When the wages rise, who though will it benefit? Part of A competitive work force is in the home economics. As citizens, American, you pay to be A comfortable and stable single family household in A decent neighborhood. It takes A good salary to do that. When theirs an entire segment of the workforce lives in housing and they overcrowd the home for financial convenience it changes the value for with which they can live or subside on. It's A known fact, I've lived in A 3rd world country outside ot the states, and within proximity of A predominant Latin community inside the boundaries of the states, and in both cases I've witnessed it. You can't offer A concept of competitiveness when theirs A different communal value system of compatibility.

There are, of course, many vaiables/dynamics at work, depending on one's local/demographics....In the west, the stalled wages are directly attributed to the illegal workforce.

What MikeH describes is how a typical roofing company, operated 20-some years ago....at least the one's I had worked for, before starting my own business.

We had/offered very similar employee benefits, (once we attained enough sales/revenue).....However, in today's climate, those opportunities are pretty-much afforded only the larger operations, and it seems, most of them only offer very limitted benefits to employees.

This is partially due to the illegsal workforce, which does not have long-term intent....They could care less about health ins., retirement, etc....Their goal is simply to make as much $, as needed, in order to send home to their families, &/or possibly return to Mexico some day, to live comfortably, (in the relative sense). "Their bags are packed", as one of my former field supervisors put it. "Their stomaches are in the U.S., however, their hearts are in Mexico", was another saying.

I belive if we, (U.S.), simply freely allowed work permits, as well as a quicker, more consice path to citizenship; HOWEVER, defined/enforced employment laws, wages would begin to creep back up.

BTW: Trying to convinve a consumer to pay $6/gal for gas, when they can go across the street for $4/gal, just isn't going to happen. You will get some loyal patronage, but nothing dramatic, no matter how much guilt is envoked.

I agree with Mike and Old School as both have made very good points, O.S has a good union, Mike H has outlined everything that's bad about the unions.

Why the difference?

Well in most States (and countries)the carpenters went inside to work for winter so the union had a steady income stream from the carpentry sector, on the other hand the roofers were laid off for winter so no money for the union.

Employers then had problems filling the skilled labor pool, not many families could budget for the three month winter lay off or at best smaller money due to less work days so the factory job looked more appealing each year.

The unions were happy to hand out cards to anyone who claimed to be a roofer, they wanted the dues, they couldn't care less about the members possibly because most of the really good workers were setting up on their own.

Today the homeowner looks on the roofer as grunt labor, every supplier has detailed manuals and videos on you tube belittling the skills of the very people they rely on for business.

I think to have the same pay level today it is necessary to show the customer why they should employ the professional roofer, it's the same the world over.

Possibly another reason the US roofer has taken such a hit is the customers see laying shingles as child's play, Ireland and the UK have a similar problem when it comes to concrete tiles.

With the large number of small business owners it is practically impossible to get them to join forces on standards, pay and charging accordingly.

One of the reasons I have always held Mike H in the highest regard, he has standards and maintains them by treating his employees with respect.

Mike, I commend you for what you do.The problem is you are few and far between. I've been on both siddes of the ball, and in my area your're better off union. Tom you bring up a good point as well. We have a rep that tries to recruiet hispanic labor, but in my opinion he's not very good. I hear they are looking for a polish speaking rep as well. If I had my druthers I'd replace the spanish speaking rep as I am fluent in Spanish. I met him while I was non union and he never returned my calls, imo probably because i wasnt Hispanic. All in all we are all out there for the same reason, to feed our families. We should respect each other, but if we united things could change!

I agree with you Mike.

BTW; The illegal workforce is the catylist for the wage stagnation. Plain & simple.....At least in my circles/regions.

Vickie; Private sector wages....vs...."Davis-Bacon", (prevailing wage rates set by our gov't for any particualer trade in any specific region).....Used to be, any gov't funded projects where Davis-Bacon mandated...Then it went to federaly funded,,,Now, I believe they find ways around that too....

I think that "companies" that use subs, and governments that do not enforce the laws differentiating between subs and employees are far more responsible for the low wages of the roofing industry than any other factor.

Vickie the Boss Said: Whats Private Davis - Bacon mean? :blush:

Private wages are listed first, Davis-Bacon (The federal prevailing wage rate) is listed second.

Old School Said: Wow, no bites on that one eh? Lets put it this way; We in the carpenters and laborers unions are looking for highly skilled and or trainable workers that are interested in doing quality work in a safe manner with appropriate compensation. This compensation includes medical insurance, retirement benefits, training, and above average wages. (see above) We are also eligible for unemployment benefits when we are off work.

Depending on where you live, the wages may not be that much higher that normal $20-25 dollars per hour, but the added benefits make up the rest of the difference.

You dont see many undocumented workers trying to get into the union. Chances are if you have union workers on your job, they are not illegals, they are not subs they are not 1099ed, they have been trained to work safely, and they will give you 8 hours of work for 8 hours of pay. Anything over 8 hours is 1 1/2 time too. We are union and we do EXCELLENT work.

We used to be a union company. My grandad was a union roofer, my dad was union roofer, and at least 2 of my employees have been at one time. The union didn't do shit for us. It didn't help us get work, and it didn't pay our guys squat when they were sitting on the bar stool bragging "I make XX dollars per hour.... Oh, but I only worked 8 hours last week."

When we dropped out, we had just one guy quit. Some have since left for the union and came back. Others went to the union because they couldn't handle our drug program. Those ones have stayed away.

I'm looking for the same kind of guys listed above. I pay a higher than competitive wage for my area. I have good healt insurance that the employee must contribute up to $112/month from his own pay, for a full family coverage. It's $60/mon for a single.

Oh, did I mention, there are no minimum hours worked during the year to qualify for me to carry your insurance through the winter? Haven't seen the union do that one yet.

I have a great 401K plan, and contribut up to 6%/year of employees wages, plus a profit sharing plan.

If employees get the job done under schedule, I pay them 100% of the wages that were allocated for that job.

I provide transportation to the jobsite.

I provide an environment that has won awards, and been nominated for some the most exclusive "all-industry" safety recognitions in the state of Ohio.

NON-UNION

When my dad's Gen. Supt. died from melanoma, even with 23 yr in the union, his widow was denied any benefits.

There's a union member who told his church, "You don't want the company I work for to do this job. Hire Hicks." Someone drove past that job yelling "scabs" for a whole day, the next morning when we showed up, our roof was cut to shreds.

Personally, I don't think the union vs non union thing has squat to do with wages, and the reason the roofers union is in such wretched decline is because they've brought it upon themselves by protecting dead weight, fighting reasonable drug prevention measures, and a host of other BS that makes being a union contractor in any place other than a big city with a large "union only" companies, a virtual impossiblity. Anywhere else, if you want to provide a good place to work, you need to be able to get rid of people that drag the company down.

But that just my opinion, based on my experience, and I don't expect everyone to agree with it.

What's Private Davis - Bacon mean? :blush:

3 factors I have seen regarding wage stagnation:

#1) The obvious easy one is Exactimate and Ins. Cos. setting the price of roofing. And it is NOT their fault. Too many willing Con Men can see the benefit of this...

#2) Bennies such as health insurance are not as important to owner or employee. Accumulating stuff is what matters most. Which segues us into.......

#3) Momma pays the bills. Best business plan for a contractor. Even better than cheating all employment laws OR having an illegal workforce. Marry a teacher or a nurse. Or a woman who has the job with benefits PLUS the pay. Yes, even a Union Job!

20-30 yrs. ago the working man was the backbone of the family unit. Now Momma is happy if Daddy ain't on crack, ain't whoring around and can at least make his Mega Grocery truck payment.

So yeah if the OWNER is happy making $20G's a year, I don't think he is going to fight the good fight for his Employees. He just wants Momma's Gravy Train to stay on the Tracks BABY!!!!!!!!!