SPF Industry Getting Saturated?

I tried to think of a way to start this thread in a way that doesn't appear self-serving. That doesn't seem possible so I'll just launch into it and take my lumps.

There have been contractors who sold their emulsion rig to get into SPF, and conversely we've had 4 contractors in the last year who were SPF contractors who decided to buy an emulsion rig. That tells me that something is in play that is more than meets the eye. I'm trying to understand that.

One new customer is a Phoenix SPF'r who bought an emulsion rig and came to Texas because there are so many foamers in Pheonix now that they're doing SPF over gravel BUR for around $200/SQR. They're killing each other. Heard the same thing from a West Coast roofing contractor, that foamers are tripping over each other out there.

More anecdotal reasoning is that in our 200k population town of Lubbock, there are at least 15 foamers now. That's 1 foam rig for every 13,333 people. Granted, not all of them do just roofs, but all of them but 1 does roofs.

Are they over-selling foam rigs? Saturating the industry can only drive down profits for contractors. The double-dip part of that is that when SPF contractors go belly up, their $50,000 rig gets sold by the bank for $20,000 and now a new guy is ready to bid roofs even cheaper.

This isn't unique to SPF rigs, I readily admit that. As this economy breaks roofers, more and more of our used rigs came on the market and created a secondary market for used rigs. Suddenly there are contractors out there who paid $10,000 for a rig rather than $30,000, have no training, yet are now fully equipped to become a nuisance low baller.

Ya can't blame SPF rig manufacturers selling as many rigs as they can, that's the business they're in. There has to be a fallout somewhere down the line.

I like foam, almost as much as I like chopped glass emulsion. We make a lot more money doing chopped glass - a LOT more. Quicker and more. My son and I were talking about this just today. We can make more profit with chopped glass at $175/SQR than we can with SPF at $300. By a wide margin.

In fairness to SPF though, we have a built-in advantage when selling chopped glass because nobody around the Midwest has our credentials with the system. With foam, we are relative noobs.

I like both systems, a lot. They serve such different markets that it's good to offer both. That said, they also compliment each other. Next week we start an 850 SQR chop job in Halton City that will get about 25 SQR of SPF to eliminate ponding areas before we chop.

Roofguy Said: I tried to think of a way to start this thread in a way that doesnt appear self-serving. That doesnt seem possible so Ill just launch into it and take my lumps.

There have been contractors who sold their emulsion rig to get into SPF, and conversely weve had 4 contractors in the last year who were SPF contractors who decided to buy an emulsion rig. That tells me that something is in play that is more than meets the eye. Im trying to understand that.

One new customer is a Phoenix SPFr who bought an emulsion rig and came to Texas because there are so many foamers in Pheonix now that theyre doing SPF over gravel BUR for around $200/SQR. Theyre killing each other. Heard the same thing from a West Coast roofing contractor, that foamers are tripping over each other out there.

More anecdotal reasoning is that in our 200k population town of Lubbock, there are at least 15 foamers now. Thats 1 foam rig for every 13,333 people. Granted, not all of them do just roofs, but all of them but 1 does roofs.

Are they over-selling foam rigs? Saturating the industry can only drive down profits for contractors. The double-dip part of that is that when SPF contractors go belly up, their $50,000 rig gets sold by the bank for $20,000 and now a new guy is ready to bid roofs even cheaper.

This isnt unique to SPF rigs, I readily admit that. As this economy breaks roofers, more and more of our used rigs came on the market and created a secondary market for used rigs. Suddenly there are contractors out there who paid $10,000 for a rig rather than $30,000, have no training, yet are now fully equipped to become a nuisance low baller.

Ya cant blame SPF rig manufacturers selling as many rigs as they can, thats the business theyre in. There has to be a fallout somewhere down the line.

Welp Tim, do you stand by this? Are you tripping over everyone for $200.00 a square?

Is the difference the guy pulling or not pulling the trigger?

JET Said:

Jed Said: See, this is when we come apart here and people get pissy then the SHTFan. We all have likes and dislikes about products but if you so vehemently insist that a certain system/product is shit then you could at least outline why, no? Especially if/when a proponent of said system enquires so.

Youre absolutely right Jed........I apologize for causing a little rift here about this stuff. My thoughts and reasons for not caring for this product are well documented over the many years Ive been posting here. For one example you just have to look at my back and forth with old Tom Hays. He got so upset he gave up the stuff and started shooting bedliners instead :ohmy: :ohmy:

JET

Now Jet, as per usual you have zero idea on what you write.

I never have shot a bedliner in my life but did expand my products to include Polyurea. The only thing I ever got sick of was a guy who thinks he hits the big time doing a Double Wide Trailer roof.

I honestly believe I could take every roof you applied in 5 years and they would not fit on one of my 20 plus year old Spray Foam Jobs. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Jed Said: See, this is when we come apart here and people get pissy then the SHTFan. We all have likes and dislikes about products but if you so vehemently insist that a certain system/product is shit then you could at least outline why, no? Especially if/when a proponent of said system enquires so.

You're absolutely right Jed........I apologize for causing a little rift here about this stuff. My thoughts and reasons for not caring for this product are well documented over the many years I've been posting here. For one example you just have to look at my back and forth with old Tom Hays. He got so upset he gave up the stuff and started shooting bedliners instead :ohmy: :ohmy:

JET

See, this is when we come apart here and people get pissy then the SHTFan. We all have likes and dislikes about products but if you so vehemently insist that a certain system/product is shit then you could at least outline why, no? Especially if/when a proponent of said system enquires so.

You "suspect"? Isn't that the same thing as "assume"? Obviously you don't know a thing about this stuff but I promise you will when one of your customers takes you to court (after his roof is ruined beyond repair) and your insurance carrier (if you even have one) bails on you. Just keep sellin' son...........your day is coming. I promise I won't say "I told 'ya so"......... :P :P

Yep, that's what I pretty much expected from you, JET. Nothing.

I suspect that you simply cannot identify the cause of failures, and are probably not inclined to admit it. That's ok, I understand.

I also know that to assume I don't know the limitations of SPF is self-serving and completely ignorant of you.

Aaron Said:

JET Said: As an insulation product I would endorse its use. As a roofing product........forget it.

JET

I am willing to listen to your reasoning. Can you cite specific valid reasons as to why, other than that you know nothing about any of it?

Sorry son, I just don't have the time or obligation to educate you about this stuff. If you don't know its limitations you shouldn't be selling it. You'll get your day in court to learn all of this, believe me.

JET

Doesn't seem to saturated around here, although at one time it was filled with guys that would foam over anything. That helped. We just don't see foam as a roof product much. The two places I've done it seem to be doing quite well. The one owner is absolutely tickled to death.

There are guys that got into foam for the interior insulation, and as the home building market has crashed, they've looked elsewhere. Most of their rigs don't have the pressure to put on polyurea, so that's the market we really pursue.

JET Said: As an insulation product I would endorse its use. As a roofing product........forget it.

JET

I am willing to listen to your reasoning. Can you cite specific valid reasons as to why, other than that you know nothing about any of it?

As an insulation product I would endorse its use. As a roofing product........forget it.

JET

lanny Said: ---I once saw a residential home with SPF. I was asked to inspect the roof as it was for sale. The homeowner raved about how great it was. It looked like a disaster to me. It was old and I know nothing about this product. So I gave it a thumbs down. I dont know how the guy ever got it to pass any inspections. Lanny

This is the main problem with SPF, *appearance* along with a lack knowledge/experience/exposure, and contributes largely to the bad rap that the system gets. When joining the company I work for now I had zero knowledge of SPF but it was pretty much all they did. I was brought in to help with a new division being built, a conventional roofing side. Hence I have had the pleasure of working closely with, though not participating in, the system, the materials and machinery, and the accredited "foamers" who actually do the work. Having zero knowledge and thus not being exposed to the bad reputation that SPF has, put me in a postition to judge the system on it's merits. Now I'm no RRC nor do I have the dearth of knowledge that many of the older contributers on this board have but having worked with many different systems in a half dozen countries what I see with SPF is a roof that IF APPLIED CORRECTLY with attention being applied to the substrate being covered, the mix ratio of the compounds, the dew point at the time of application, and a few other integral factors, a foam roof might just be the best system I've seen. Aesthetically the waves and contours of the roof as it slopes towards drains, and away from penetrations blew me away and the thickness and feel of the roof underfoot and the granules covering it inspire confidence in their touch. That said, a foam roof that was applied with scant attention being paid to the above, the open sores that were once blisters, the peeling of the coating that once covered a multitude of sins, and the large puddles that were left by a roofer with a foam gun as opposed to the mop and buggy which are the tools of his trade, is an abomination, painful to the eyes and will break a roofers heart, understandably turning him against foam for life. Such is the gravity of the experience. The energy savings and R value of SPF far outweigh any other system I know of and with a MAINTENANCE PLAN that involves a clean and recoat every 10 years(at minimal expense) the system will out perform all others, even pitch.

Disclaimer. Like I said we have a large foam side to this company but as a project manager I have little to do with it and it does very nicely without me pushing the product

lanny Said: ---I once saw a residential home with SPF. I was asked to inspect the roof as it was for sale. The homeowner raved about how great it was. It looked like a disaster to me. It was old and I know nothing about this product. So I gave it a thumbs down. I dont know how the guy ever got it to pass any inspections. Lanny

Hmmmm you knew nothing, so you gave it a thumbs down... pretty typical of ignorance.

---I once saw a residential home with SPF. I was asked to inspect the roof as it was for sale. The homeowner raved about how great it was. It looked like a disaster to me. It was old and I know nothing about this product. So I gave it a thumbs down. I don't know how the guy ever got it to pass any inspections. Lanny

SPF is no different than single ply manufacturers of the 80s and 90s. They're setting everyone up to get their product out of the warehouse. There's going to be a lot of people give the product a bad name. Eventually, there will be some strong contractors come out of the mix. The only difference is there won't really be many tailgate SPFers.