Sitting in Atlanta Airport

Lefty Said: I share my knowledge on how I run my business freely, knowing I will be attacked most of the time. I could never do what Richard Kallar did being under constant attack. Richard never shared any of the practices that would come under the confidentialty agreements.

I don't think I have seen any one being attacked- definitely not lefty. I am sorry lefty feels that way. It is all about experiences and learning.

I went to a 2-day RSI recruitment seminar 4 years ago. It was very upbeat and positive. It was much like many motivational seminars that I have attended whose goal is to sell dreams, books and tapes. They had most of the participants salivating and falling all over themselves to join up- at least 3 dozen of them. They had me feeling like an idiot for not taking the leap.

I doubt the confidentiality agreements keep anything confidential other than the price paid for their services because what they offer are basic business practices and support. I couldn't figure if they were asking to marry me, hire them on as a full time employee, or sell me a franchise. They are in the business of business.

Mike, It is good to see your 2 posts here. One reason is, it is always nice to see good things said about yourself.

The main reason is Andy was calling me wordy in another topic, and with those 2 posts it will show him what wordy is. I have been called a lot of things. But wordy, I have never been accused of being wordy. Of all the things said about me this is crossing the line. I almost want to ask for a retraction from Andy.

Vickie, Andy was being hostile, calling me wordy.

wywoody Said: Mike I admire your loyalty, but that does nothing to alter my perception of the cultish nature of RSI. Anything I have said about or to Lefty has been meant just as spirited conversation. With the possible exception of my response to his condescending about his superior management of safety issues, that was to let him know the grain of salt I take with him.

And Mike, on the residential side, starting from nothing is the norm.

wywoody,

"loyalty" has nothing to do with it. I have the good fortune of knowing Lefty personally, and have worked with him on several fronts regarding business management. He does things even I won't do, and I always considered myself fairly progressive. I've never met anyone so doggedly unconventional, yet so entirely logical in that unconventionality.

Like you, I'm just sharing an opinion, based on experience. I have no experience with RSI, but I have a lot of experience with Lefty. I have as much respect for him as anyone I know. And my "respect" list is pretty short.

You wrote elsewhere "Ill admit to shortcomings in my people management patience, but I refuse to allow others to define whether I can run a business profitably, legally, ethically dedicated to uncompromised quality of the end product."

We all have shortcomings. Quite a few. Doesn't make us bad, wrong, right or indifferent. Fortunately, we all have different shortcomings. The thing I respect about Lefty, that is quite rare in this "lone wolf" industry, is his willingness to recognize his own shortcomings and set them along side his pride and move them out of the way in order to build a team. That's the hardest thing to do in any business. Build a team. We were having breakfast in VA the first time he mentioned this RSI thing to me, and we talked about 2 hours. Even at that, it just touched the tip of the iceberg, so I'd say the information gleened from this RCS thread doesn't provide enough ice to cool your coffee. Let alone enough information to provide a useful opinion.

What I do want to make absolutely certain of, is that my post wasn't directed at you, or anyone else here. When I read my post, I don't see anything directed at anyone, or anything offensive. While I hope there wasn't, if any offense was taken by anyone, it's because they must have thought the shoe fit, and a little too tight. I know very few people here well enough to make character judgments, and my post wasn't that, nor a declaration of the right or wrong way to run a roofing business. What matters is that we find a way that works for us, and find peace in that way. If there's no peace in your methods, then change your methods. If you can't change your methods, then you've got a problem that needs solved, and it's probably a bigger problem than the business. (I don't mean "you" specifically, but you, me, anybody)

Just seems to me like Lefty wants to put the best team possible on the field, yet recognized that he only has enough knowledge to coach some skill positions, not the entire team strategy. So he's looking for help in doing so.

That's what's really rare in this industry.

I know only one person that's a part of RSI, so it's my only source of opinion formation. Based on that single source, I have no choice but to have a good impression of RSI. Until I hear the opposite from people that have actually paid the fee, sat in the meetings and integrated the methods, my mind isn't vast enough to entertain another impression. Everything else is just hearsay.

PS: most of the commercial guys I know started with nothing also. Most worked for someone else, got tired of the boss making all the "easy money", so they hung their own shingle on the front door. Most got a real good education in the process. I doubt residential and commercial differ much in that regard.

(Vickie, maybe I'm too much the optimist, but where's the hostility?)

Lefty Said:

seen-it-all Said: Question for Lefty:

You seem to want more than just running a business. Is the next step creating a brand in reference to why a customer would choose your company over another. I believe once you have a brand, what ever it may be, price no longer is the dictating factor in a customers purchasing decision.

We have already reached that point. My company is well know with a good reputation and price is not why people have us do their roofs.

I definetly know that I do not know how to hire the right people. This is one of the reasons that we joined. They have the systems and relationships with companys to insure you hire the right people. There are other areas of running a business that we could spend years working thru or go to the people that have the systems in place.

I understand now your direction. The right people in the right place at the right time are key to going forward for you now. It's funny how you need all three of these pieces for this to succeed. I was ready in 2009 to make a big change in my business to go to another level but a major injury interrupted that plan. The company at that time was operating profitability and I had established a brand as being the best residential roofing company in the city to the point of people booking a year in advance to get their roof done. Pricing was always based on profitability and not on competition. I had two sons that were active in the company on a part time basis while doing their apprenticeships in electrical and carpentry and were preparing to make the leap to another level in starting a house construction division in the roofing company after getting their tickets. After I had my major injury I encouraged both my sons to move on with their trades rather than trying to keep the business running while I recovered. They are both doing good where they are 5 years later, both foremen in their trades where they work. Meanwhile I've retracted to the lone wolf status and am happy with the reduced to nil stress in my life at this point. All the best in the next stage of your business development.

Vickie, You let him post longer then I would have. Maybe that is why I reread his posts. Knowing that he would be banned sooner or later. He would not advertize, but continued to try and sell his company on the forum. Never understood that.

Wywoody,

My my youngest son Adam graduated high school I bribed him to come and work with me. I gave him more money then he could make anywhere else. My wife said to me "you are bribing him". I said "no shit". Like I did not know what I was doing. There were several reasons for this.

When my oldest son, Jesse, was graduating college and I recruited him just like any company would recruit a college graduate. Jesse said "I do not want to do roofing". I told him that Adam and myself did not want him on the roof. We wanted him in the office and selling. I offered him a brand new truck, a Nextel, plus other things. It was the longest 2 weeks of my life, waiting for his answer.

I would never state that I am in full compliance. I just hope when they inspect, that they hit me with something minor. I do the best I can. I use more safety equipment then any other residential roofer in my area. We are improving all the time. When I was on every job, no one got hurt. Other then cuts or bee stings. Since we opened our books and started to teach our employees what it cost to run a business, safety has improved.

I think it's disheartening that this tread is turning hostile. This website has been then the salvation of many a roofer by you guys debating but I am getting that feeling it's going to far. Lefty is way to smart to be drinking Kool-aid and I don't think he is trying to recruit you. The day you quit tying to improve you slide backwards. If I was sitting in an airport after learning a few new ideas I would want to share it with my friends too. There is no perfect fit for every business, we all take the information that we want and throw the rest way.

Religion, Politics and Roofers Success International, Sheesh.

I banned Richard Kaller because as he was serving you good advice he was using this Forum to shamelessly promote himself. I actually had to pay someone to read through his topics. I have always been very welcoming to our RCS'ers promoting their products and they did it respectfully. Kleen Cutter, G-Tape, Kold King but I was paying Richard Kaller to post here and I didn't want to. He refused to tone the posts down so I banned him. One of two guys I banned after all these years.

Now I am going to be late for my meeting!

Hi Lefty, Thanks for your gracious responses and not escalating any hostility.

I've been in your situation where what you've built gives you the incentive to build things bigger and better than you would on your own for employees you value and (in your case) family, Sadly, my only son just isn't roofer material. A kid gets a masters from Johns-Hopkins and a MBA from Wharton and it's like they forget how to swing a hammer.

As for your claim to what was pictured was "accepted practice". At no time in my career has working without safety equipment at that height been accepted practice wherever I've worked, 7 different states and two Canadian provinces. But I'll accept the fact that where you're at, it wasn't cracked down on.

That picture was taken at least 5 years after I had cut way back out of frustration. When I had 3-4 crews installing tile, I was getting another safety violation every 18 months or so despite constant nagging, safety pay incentives, thousands of $ worth of safety equipment. Here in Washington, the state is both the WC carrier and the safety OSHA. Repeat violation fines automatically double. I realized that I had to only have one crew, with me onsite, figure a method and expand from there. I also had lots of resentment over the fact that between the WC premiums and sales tax revenue, I was generating $20-30,000 per month to the very state I perceived to be a constant harasser. Once I cut back to just me and one crew, I found I enjoyed that more. I also have only had one violation since 1996.

Lefty, you state your crews are all now in full compliance. I'd venture that at no time have you ever managed a company that was in full compliance on a roof with tile stocked on it. When you've done that, I'll accept your condescension of me being a lowly lone wolf type.

GKRFG Said: Lefty, Thanks for the post. I believe that you have built up a great business over the years. I also believe that you have managed to find the right kind of people and that to do right by yourself, your business and your people that now is the time for the company take another step.

disclaimer: BTW- I have absolutely no talent for conciseness :)

I say this because this is where I would like to see my business go and I have always thought that the biggest obstacle to improving my company is ME. And I would wager that is true of everyone of us. No matter what your goal is. Few of us in this trade have a business background and there comes a point where lack of knowledge is the wall to climb. There are not a lot of resources to find that type of knowledge. I applaud your decision to take this step and look forward to hearing anything you might want to share.

For the Lone Wolves the problem is not knowledge but eventual physical limitations.

I also enjoyed Kallers input. I would love to hear you take over the role. B)

We are alike. I have been blessed with 2 son's and a sister that work with me. Without them I would just have a good paying job. I do not know if I could have got to wear you are at without them. My hat is off to you and what you have done.

My sister died of cancer just before Christmas. She stopped working in March of 2014. One of the reasons we made the move.

I share my knowledge on how I run my business freely, knowing I will be attacked most of the time. I could never do what Richard Kallar did being under constant attack. Richard never shared any of the practices that would come under the confidentialty agreements.

Bob Tronson, I think would have shared more, if it where not for the constant attacks on the pratices he learned from Richard Kallar. I read Bob's website and used the information there to improve my business.

seen-it-all Said: Question for Lefty:

You seem to want more than just running a business. Is the next step creating a brand in reference to why a customer would choose your company over another. I believe once you have a brand, what ever it may be, price no longer is the dictating factor in a customers purchasing decision.

We have already reached that point. My company is well know with a good reputation and price is not why people have us do their roofs.

I definetly know that I do not know how to hire the right people. This is one of the reasons that we joined. They have the systems and relationships with companys to insure you hire the right people. There are other areas of running a business that we could spend years working thru or go to the people that have the systems in place.

wywoody Said:

Lefty Said:

wywoody Said: My goal wasnt to personally install. But when I got much beyond that, I realized my goal wasnt to spend my time putting out fires, managing egos, fixing below-par work and being a constant safety nag.

This is the biggest problem with most employees. They thing the things you listed are not part of running a business. They think that installing is 95% of the business. With that attitude they think that they are the most important part of the business. They think the business owner is just reaping the rewards of the installers hard work.

What you stated is you were looking to reap the rewards of the installers without running a business.

You qualify as running a business. I would dare to say that you are just providing yourself with a good paying job and you hire help to get your job done. And there is nothing wrong with that. Actually that is what is great about this country. Anyone can do that if that is what their goal is.

Projecting a little of your inner Elizabeth Warren there, Lefty? (you didnt build that business.)

Ill admit to shortcomings in my people management patience, but I refuse to allow others to define whether I can run a business profitably, legally, ethically dedicated to uncompromised quality of the end product.

I also have a good memory. I recall pictures of a steep church reroof with 6-8 workers with 0 safety equipment at a height that could bring felony charges for the company owner. The sheer disregard for the workers safety and the stupidity of posting it astonished me. I still remember my thought when seeing it That idiot has no business running a business.

I started out in the roofing business just to create myself a good paying job. I hired people to get my job done. That lasted 20 years. The last 15 years my goal changed. It is now to create a company that provides the best service in my area for my customers , the best place to work, and a company that can run without me. I have accomplished that before I joined RSI.

About that church roof, at the time that was accepted practice. If you would have picked pictures I have posted since then, you could not call me an idiot. Since then everyone wears a harness unless we set up the safety rail system on shingle roofs. I have seen some roofers in our area use harness's, but I have not seen any use the safety rail system.

http://www.brinkroofing.com/

Pretty impressive.

I see that one of the generic pictures on his site is also on mine. Can you say..... Cookie Cutter? :laugh:

I'd like to see those old topics w/Richard Kaller. I don't remember if I even got involved...... :side: I vaguely remember it got pretty heated, just don't know why anymore.

Hell, I had my own issues w/ Lefty. I remember a bad argument one day. I left that behind. I've come to respect him very much. I also stand by my original comments on this thread. I don't think a lot people would come right out and say "Hey! I've joined a new organization" I appreciate that Lefty did.

Kyle? IDK what happened w/ Brink (?). I see some stuff on Facebook w/ his brother once in a while.

kang a ROOF!

Mike I admire your loyalty, but that does nothing to alter my perception of the cultish nature of RSI. Anything I have said about or to Lefty has been meant just as spirited conversation. With the possible exception of my response to his condescending about his superior management of safety issues, that was to let him know the grain of salt I take with him.

And Lefty, I sure miss the days when everything you posted started with Hi.

And Mike, on the residential side, starting from nothing is the norm.

Success breeds resentment. It always has, it always will.

While we are all free to define "success" in our own way, the individualism common to the roofing business, where roofing "companies" are often started by people who had trouble working with others, for others, or in many cases weren't even hire-worthy to most upper level corporations, organizations like RSI will always be despised by the general masses in the roofing business. It's just what it is.

What I know about Lefty Holencik is this: 1. He came from nothing. 2. He built the most recognized and respected residential roofing company in his market (which is a fairly large market, and has been verified by public opinion polls) 3. He built that company by doing things most people in the residential market say "can't be done". Like using real employees instead of subs. Paying exceptional health and retirement benefits, bonus programs and utilizing a strict point-system for discipline.... all before having anything to do with RSI. 4. He doesn't spend his money foolishly. 5. He researches every major decision he makes, and usually seeks trusted counsel before doing so.

IMHO, if Lefty Holencik joined RSI, the facts are far different than what one would gather by reading this thread. Doesn't mean there aren't bad apples in, and viable examples of the above, to be found in RSI, but I'm willing to bet a lot more than a month's worth of pay that RSI offers an education worth paying for, a blueprint worth studying, and roadmap on how to get there, if your definition of success goes beyond "Working for myself and putting on the best damn roof possible".

It's also my experience that most roofers are about 1/2 as good as they think they are, and don't recognize real quality when they see it, because they've never really been exposed to it in the workplace. I think the bulk of the people that participate here are exceptions to that rule, as most people willing to share their wisdom and experience have taken the time to actually learn something. But Lefty Holencik is nobody's fool. Even if the only words he ever said about RSI was "It's a good organization", I would take that word over a 100 examples to the contrary.

Richard Kaller got villified for the very same reasons. Very few roofers have what it takes to swallow their pride and pay-the-piper to teach them what they think they can do better for themselves. And that's a fact you take to the bank. I tip my hat to Lefty and Jesse for (my own paraphrase here) admitting they had gone as far as they were able with their own skill set and joining an organization that enables them to collectively share what works and doesn't. You can't sell ethics, you can only teach them by example. I am willing to bet that the Holencik's have as much of an impact on RSI as RSI has on them.

Go get'em Lefty.