Roofing contractor defined

Right on Old School....

However.....just remember; "Perception, IS reality"......

Old School Said: You put a suit on a pig and he still looks like a pig. Piecework is sub work. Contract work with the proper licensing, insurance, and equipment is subbing. Face it guys, 99% of your Sub crews are employees that you are not paying the necessary taxes and insurance on. Been there and done that. Denial is not that long river in Egypt.

ya i forgot the insurance part albiet in texas there is no licensing, wc or ins requirements. My sub crews have 1mill 2mill liability. If they dont then my insurance doesnt cover the job. With my employee crew it does. my employees get paid by the day.

"Face it guys, 99% of your "Sub" crews are employees that you are not paying the necessary taxes and insurance on

I'd put the number at 25% or less. Maybe the newbies in business might get caught creating "captured employees" or mischaracterizing them as independent contractors when they are, in fact, employees. It's far too easy to meet the intent and spirit of the IRS regs governing legitimate independent contractors so a contractor would be a fool to get caught in that trap.

You put a suit on a pig and he still looks like a pig. Piecework is sub work. Contract work with the proper licensing, insurance, and equipment is subbing. Face it guys, 99% of your "Sub" crews are employees that you are not paying the necessary taxes and insurance on. Been there and done that. Denial is not that long river in Egypt.

lanny Said: ---The IRS has a lengthy definition of what a true sub is. Most of what I read about here are not true subs by the IRS definition. ---An IRS audit will take place and big fines and back taxes will be due in many cases. ---Basically to be a sub you must be a true contractor in your own right. Otherwise you are just an employee regardless of whether or not you are paying piecework. ---I know of a local company that paid piecework. They got audited by Labor & Industries in my state ( Washington). The auditor did not accept their hours worked formula. That is, in Wa you are charged around $5/hr for employees for injury & disability. Well, piecework requires one to figure out the hours worked based upon NOT the wages paid (some make more than others for the same time spent if you pay piecework) but the actual hours. The end result was they were charged $19,000 from the audit and required to use timecards for all employees. ---I have worked piecework many times when I first started roofing. However, all my employees are hourly. I dont want the goal to be time. I want the goal to be quality. I dont care how long it takes...just do it right. I used to be rush, rush, rush...We slam banged roofs so fast that I look back and wonder how we ever got away with some of the work we did. We werent sloppy on purpose. But we rushed and quality was sacrificed. Lets face it ...the employee does not care as much as the owner. Now as an owner I care. I even say on occasion, Slow down and do a good job!!! Lanny

Your right thats part of the criteria i listed above about not telling them when to show up, when to leave and restricting them to only work for me. Thats part of it as is having an asumed name or DBA and all their own tools. if they borrow your tools they are not subs. you can rent them out but not borrow. ie trailers, nail guns...even a hammer.

Randy-- That sounds like a solution for your groupd of Indy Roofers, as your pricing is close w/ each other. Here I'd have to drop $60 sq. (min) or join forces w/ the egos who actually invented roofing 40 yrs. ago.

The Doo Rag Roofers do the same thing here, but as sub crews. They seem to draw from a bunch of self employed individuals to put a crew together when a job comes up.

In the old days, there might be a union and there might be a "fund" to establish some benefits or something long term. Now it is KASH. I think that is what makes mine "authentic"..... we are set for something better than KASH. Not a lot that we can do in this industry, but some economic benefits are possible

---The IRS has a lengthy definition of what a true sub is. Most of what I read about here are not true subs by the IRS definition. ---An IRS audit will take place and big fines and back taxes will be due in many cases. ---Basically to be a sub you must be a true contractor in your own right. Otherwise you are just an employee regardless of whether or not you are paying piecework. ---I know of a local company that paid piecework. They got audited by Labor & Industries in my state ( Washington). The auditor did not accept their "hours worked" formula. That is, in Wa you are charged around $5/hr for employees for injury & disability. Well, piecework requires one to figure out the "hours worked" based upon NOT the wages paid (some make more than others for the same time spent if you pay piecework) but the actual hours. The end result was they were charged $19,000 from the audit and required to use timecards for all employees. ---I have worked piecework many times when I first started roofing. However, all my employees are hourly. I don't want the goal to be time. I want the goal to be quality. I don't care how long it takes...just do it right. I used to be rush, rush, rush...We slam banged roofs so fast that I look back and wonder how we ever got away with some of the work we did. We weren't sloppy on purpose. But we rushed and quality was sacrificed. Let's face it ...the employee does not care as much as the owner. Now as an owner I care. I even say on occasion, "Slow down and do a good job!!!" Lanny

TomB Said: JSC....Isnt this just a Jim-Dandy of a mess?

Holy Moly yes. It's bad enough that this happens in Calif where it's illegal to be a subcontractor unless you are licensed. Try getting a job from a totally cost-oriented customer when the undergrounders have you beat by the entire amount of the labor burden, and in some cases their work is of decent quality too.

I'm glad you've been able to overcome and prosper in Colorado, Tom. It musta been tough.

I do my own roofing, and by that I mean I nail on the shingles. I don[t do many any more, but they are perfect. That makes me a "roofer" as well as a "roofing contractor"

JSC....Isn't this just a "Jim-Dandy" of a mess?

JSC Said: These subs are unlicensed?

In alot of states there is no licensing...wish there was ...

JSC Said: When a roofing contractor subs out his jobs to another roofing contractor, does the 2nd tier roofer show up with his own advertising visible (logos on shirts, truck signs, etc.)?

no the guys I use dont sell any jobs...they just do them. they do work for a couple other companies when I cant keep em busy. These guys just plain dont want to sell. They dont have bussiness cards or anything.

I think roofing in general has changed a ton in the past 5 years. This world is full of "roofing contractors" who do $20,000,000 in revenue with 4 employees. Your competition is now your friend. We share and co-op many jobs in this area...it is not uncommon for me to bid against my friends, me get the job and have the friends do the work. I have at least 4 other roofing companies that are good friends of mine. We will bid against each other but are always within $10 a sq. of each other.

It is kind of funny when we sometimes show up to do a job...and my crew is the same guys who had bid the job against me. Homeowners never know how to take that. They think we all hate each other when in fact we are all good friends. It's funny when a customer bad mouths one of us, behind backs, then we hear about it an hour later.

I don't require any of my crews remove advertising from their vehicles or shirts on my jobs, nor do they expect it from me on their jobs.

Our main goal in this area is to have the true local contractor get the job, even if it is not us!! We don't want XYZ coming in from Texas or Miami and stealing from our mouths. We have found by joining forces, forming local co-ops with other local contractors, we can and will impact the storm chasers. I seen it work....but you can't do it alone.

These "subs" are unlicensed?

JSC Said: When a roofing contractor subs out his jobs to another roofing contractor, does the 2nd tier roofer show up with his own advertising visible (logos on shirts, truck signs, etc.)?

No. Normally, the guys that are visibly advertising are selling retail. The guys that are subbing are selling wholesale and they lower their chances of being hired by a general, who specializes in roofing, by putting signs on their trucks.