Pay scale compared to other Industries

My best quality roofers have always been piece workers.....A guy that's good at what he does, is typically exceptionally proficient at it...It goes hand-in-hand. Typically, the slower they are, the sloppier they are...That's my experiences anyhow.

The employer & employee must have similar mind-sets/goals....The motivation factor of the employer to pay his employee pc wk, is to reward the employee with opportunity to excell, & make more $...Whereas, the employee must possess sincere desire to provide his most effecient/quality work efforts.

SoCal; Mostly 4 & 5/12 pitches.....Comp $15/sq & up...Tile $15 F&S...$25 tile placing. Avg. prod. Comp. 12 - 20 sqs/day per man...Tile 8 - 12 sqs/day per man

Colo Mtns; 4&5/12 pitches....Comp. (shingle only)...$25/sq & up....Tile; $50/sq F&S(2x2 vt&hz) & $50/sq. tile placing.....Avg. prod.....we're working on that.

Of cousre the pc rate prices increase as per steepness & difficulty/complicity increases.

No problem Rocky. I was stating what most folks consider is "good" here, not what a piece worker is.

Twill, it does sound like you're right pitting union vs non- union.I think both ways can work in their areas. Piece work doesn't determine fast and sloppy.actually the reverse happens as far sloppiness. When I pay piece work if the applicator screws something up he goes and repairs it on his time and dime.shingles make 18 to 30 per sqdepending on type of shingle and 5 to 10to per sq depending on pitch. If they have to get material which is seldom, theru Most residential are 4/1-5/12 ranch style hmes. 25- 40 sas. 2 guys blow that out in 1a day maybe 2a with complcations. We roof 320 days a year. They are all payed on w2's no 1009's they all get bnnies. Maybe not as extravakgant as union, but my guys and gals get bettered than most in this area. Tile guys get 20forr tile 12 for for dry and stick. No trash haul off. 2 piece tile get 48for plus dry in. You can't tell me those aren't. Fair wages...I m not saying I don't get quality issues popping up now and then, but if the guy is still working for me he fixes the problem on his time. These are all seasoned roofers, not carpenters trying to do a roofeea job or filling in time. Roofers do roofing here carpenters do wood. I know some can do both, but we keep them separate here. I wrote this on my cell phone, hope u can read it.

The way it works in NWI: Union Carpenters/ roofers: Pay + benefits+ OT= $30-40 gross wages (- union dues)+ Bennies Non-Union HRLY. Workers, subs/ 1099'd: Union scale- cost of benefits- overhead= $15-20 NET wages

The piece workers of course are even more misguided. A few really Good ones (here that means Fast & Sloppy)might do as well as the lowest paid union guys

Ad in the local paper for roofing laborers wanted....

Small, local outfit....Could be "qualifying" for hiring "visiting" workers.

Rate of pay advertised was $ 11.07/hr. Huge ad....outrageously/idiotically detailed....aprx. 6" - 7" column legnth, in the want ads'.

A gooberment requirement?....only ran for two days.

I thought it was something we took for peanut-breath. What am I supposed to do now?

Mike, you speeled it wrong. It is: Gooberm$nt ( as in Mint, where they print what used to be money)

Cyberian Said:

Absolutely!

You provide a very nice benefits package for your employees.

Ours is comparable and probably a bit higher than scale, not many union shops left here to compare to.

You would think that what you offer would have them pounding down the door to go to work for you. Is that the case? Its not here. Why?

Most tell me its because we drug test. Im not sure I buy that.

No, we have not yet been forced to install a revolving door to handle the traffic. Lot's of people out of work.... lots of people happy collecting their extended UNemployment checks for sitting on their rumps. I'm sure the drug testing has some to do with it, but I think fear of heights, hard work, inconsistent workdays etc... all play a part.

But mostly I think it's just the fact that the gooberment makes it too easy not to work.

I'm glad to see that we aren't the only crew who doesn't like to hire mis-educated roofers.

I think it's hard to find a honest guy who will bust his ass every day for $12/hr(starting off) These odds get worse when you ask him to pass a drug test. What a guy does after work is none of my business as long as he gets his ass off the couch when the time comes. I don't need to use drugs as an excuse to fire someone, when really it's irresponsibility. Somebody getting hammered drunk and feeling it the next day is just as dangerous IMO.

Rocky....The industry has been sing'n that song for 20 yrs that I kbnow of....

Soldierboy....I hear ya there....been there-done that.....I've hired severasl $80k+ general superintendents over the years when we were bigger. I do know a couple of them took different career paths, following our separation(s). A couple of them came from large companies where they must've "hid-out", because they lacked severely, and it shone-though when they had to stand alone.

MikeH....I agree completely....When we ran a more substantial shop, in a more constant/stable marketplace, we had similar employment guidelines....We paid for the employees' health ins. 100%., (The employee would have to pick-up his her dependents though)....Our profit-sharing was simpler; Based on a per job basis. All estimated labor went back to employees. No 401k.

The big one though....I too, prefer to hire in-experienced people. The best estimator I ever had, I hired almost fresh out of school.....He worked for me for 5 yrs before going to work for his Dad back in Indiana. I have several former employee success stories where they went on to form thier own very successfull businesses...What they all have in common, is the fact they started w/me, w/o any experience, and have all expressed their gratitude. (It almost brings a tear to the eye...ha)

Today, I'm in a unique situation....I chose to live in a resort community, where work is seasonal and the labor pool is even more gypsie-like.....Enter the huge illegal construction/service workforce, who supply the support service industry here, and you have a rather difficult/frustrating scenerio. But hey, I made my bed.

To reiterate; By all means; If one can find good people w/o any experience, that's they way to go. It's proven, time & again.

Mike H Said: It can work. But not if your only means of selling a job is being the lowest price.

Absolutely!

You provide a very nice benefits package for your employees.

Ours is comparable and probably a bit higher than scale, not many union shops left here to compare to.

You would think that what you offer would have them pounding down the door to go to work for you. Is that the case? It's not here. Why?

Most tell me it's because we drug test. I'm not sure I buy that.

Pay needs, scales, and living expenses vary so much across the country that I don't see what it matters. What is important is that your wage is competitive in the marketplace, that opportunity to advance within the company exists, and that people think you care about them.

Here's what I won't do: I don't hire experienced roofers. Don't need the baggage, attitude and mistakes of an "experienced" guy that is looking for a job.

I don't try to hire people from other companies. I figure if a guy is willing to come to me for more money, he's going to do the same to me eventually, and I have no real respect for companies that don't train their own people anyway.

What I will do: Hire people with ZERO roofing experience. Train them OUR way. Offer a wage that is better than a local factory job. Offer full family health coverage at an employee expense of $25/pay period. Offer a YE profit sharing plan that has averaged about $4.00/hour worked, that is heavily slanted toward A) people that show up to work every day, B ) Company loyalty, and yet C) Reserves 1/3 of the total for nothing more complex than the number of hours worked so that even 1st year guys have something of value in the program. Offer a job specific bonus program that returns EVERY estimated labor dollar to the employees, if the job comes in under budget. Payable as soon as the final invoice is paid and/or the job passes warranty inspection/punchlist complete. Offer a 3% employer 401K contribution to every employee, regardless of their personal contribution, PLUS a YE profit sharing 401K contribution of 3%, if funds are availabe (most years they are).

My average wage isn't super high. It's not union scale, but I had one forman leave for the union after some heavy recruitment...... he came back a month later asking for his job back. Said "I just can't work around that kind of attitude".

Every employee of mine is a Drug-Free, US Citizen, most of them have a family, and most of them have drivers licenses.

It can work. But not if your only means of selling a job is being the lowest price.

I agree that most foremen should be able to handle all of that, many would prefer it actually. I know I do.

I'm walking a fine line of what I can and can't say publicly- it's not my shop-

What I probably can say is that I walked away from more than $22 hr w/no benefits to move back home over 11 years ago.

With benefits here, It's more than $10 higher than that, closer to $15 higher.

Maybe it's different areas of the country, different labor pools, different markets, I don't know.

Cyberian:

The job description is one that most Forman's should be doing. If someone doesn't want to work that extra half an hour in the morning for $22.00 an hour and set up his and his crews work for the day then they are lazy. I have gone back and forth threw the years about having a project manager full time. Did that and I should have just burned the money. It turned out to be more aggrivation than it was worth. A Lead Carpenter "Forman" should be able to handle this extra duty. Guys in the Military cary several extra duties and manage to get it done.

shoulda spell checked that but you get my point