Just how fast is "fast"

Tom, we used to have one guy lay out for the two of us the same way. You literally didn't have to talk, as all of us knew exactly what to do. That was with guns running. When we were hand nailing, all of us would be nailing shingles, and the youngest brother on the job would be carrying shingles and setting them on our knees.

When I was 14, my dad and I and my two of my younger brothers age 11 and 8 roofed a apartment building one day. 50 2/3 squares of 3-1's hand nailed in 7 1/2 hours. Dad would have been 44 at that time. The 11 year old nailed the ends of the shingles that dad laid and the 8 year old set shingles on our knees and nailed ends when he could. That let me only have to nail the first three nails most of the time as the last nail was hit by one of the brothers. About over 7 squares an hour for 7 hours for a man and his young sons. I have been at it a long time, because I had been roofing for about 10 years then!

The building was a 2 story 4/12 pitch 2 straight sides. I don't think they make them like that amy more. funhy thing is that I try and tell the guys now how they can go faster, but they mostly don't listen. It is not so much quality though that plays into it too, but just wasted motion.

About 25 years ago I was working with 5 othe rguys on a big wide open 3-1 roof and we put down 135 squares in 8 hours with 4 guns running. that is 2.81 squares per man hour with 6 guys for a day. That is good production for a crew that size. Last year I did a straight roof with 2 stack flashings that was 32 squares and I had a bit over 7 man hours into it, for a tad over 4 squares per man hour for that time. that was pretty fast for a 59 year old cripple with bad knees. When you spread it out over a day or so and keep it up, that tells you how fast you really are.

OS...Your a preach'n to the choir here....I used to tell my helper, we're making money, so long as the the guns' going...When it stops, we're not making and money.

The most effective way we found, was to have a helper to two shinglers.....helper would roll felt, open bundles-position shingles...even lay-out racks of staples/nails, cut rake pieces, starter "books", clean-up...whatever it took to keep those guns going.

When harmonioulsy orchestrated, it was a very productive and positive experience....cold beers at days end and high-fives, for a job well done!

It's extremely painful to watch these guys work today....I have to excuse myself from the jobstie now & then.....The other day, I had a right-handed guy laying shingles from right-to-left....it was the old monkey-boinking the football show....They won't listen :(

English-measure comp with 7/8 hand-nails. What a dream shingle to put on. Acres and acres with no call-backs.

Tom, and that is all part of it. I distinctly remember as a little kid watching dad and the crew hand load shingles onto a truck at the warehouse in the morning before heading out the the job. At the end of a week, if you hand nailed 100 squares, you knew you had done some work.

It is so different now with the large cut up roofs and the laminates. If there were still 3-1's on the McMansions being built it would be another story too. The shihngles back them were orgainic and not fibreglas and they were not as flimsy to work with. Since they were smaller and there were more of them per square, they were easier to set with your "off" hand, but there were more to nail for a square. In the videos I see now, most of the guys will set the gun down and align the shoingle with both hands and then try and "blaze" across the shingle with the gun to make time. I never set the gun down, and use the tip of the gun to bump the shingle into place if I pull it down too far when i set it. You can't have wasted motion if you are going to make any time. We would have fit right into your crew.

"but I like them bis cuits 'n gravy, umhum, I surely do, umhum."

:laugh:

You're only as fast as the time between answering the first call from the customer and the last of any callbacks. Believing in how fast it gets slapped on is a recipe' for underbidding.

OS....On that particualr ocaision, that 64 sqs in a day, included hand loading onto a truck, as well as hand-loading onto two different roofs, at two different locations...a couple of miles apart. Otherwise, 64 sq in a day, w/4 men, was an avg. day, back then.

1.5 sqs. per hr avg. was a minn. goal. During any particular building boom, 100+ sqs/week was quite common for our shinglers, (including myself).

Also; We never "dried-in" new const. roofs...So, our "Shingling" included all metal flashing, underlayment...Complete

That's why he used to go by BOSS. ;) Out here, in the "old days" it was:

Wood: square an hour plus one for the boss=9 sq.per day. Sidewall: bundle an hour= 2 sq. per day. Comp: two square an hour plus two for the boss=18 Hot: (three-ply rag with gravel or equal) square an hour per man (finished.) Concrete tile: square an hour per man, finished, loading not incl.

That was the benchmark for new work, modified by site conditions. All sheet metal and carpentry by others, except we were expected to set our own valleys and button up overhangs which were left loose for us to shingle undershots.

Re-roofing involves many time-consuming extras, and making your own metal parts (which fit and perform much better when done by the same person installing the roof covering) is a huge extra.

Guns are burdensome to a superior hand-nailer, but out in the field on big runs there is no question that they are considerably faster. Set-up time is often next to nothing. I remember my first air set-up, Paslode staple guns (big) with a gas-powered compressor (big) and set-up and maintenance was such a drag I got rid of the whole deal and went back to hand-nailing until the technology improved.

Air-nailing is easier on the arms and hands, but if you get up to speed it's harder on the body overall. imho/fwiw

GSD, That is funny! I doubt if I could ever "run" a marathon in my best days. Maybe walk one years ago. I too could knock someone out, but shingling, I was and am good at. Lucky for us, everyone is better at different things.

I ran a marathon in 3:58:34 once.

I can knock someone out in a few seconds.

as for nailing shingles.......well........ um.........ahh................ Hmmmm,.......think we'll get a bunch of snow this winter?

What we are doing here is comparing apples and tomatoes. They are both red, but they are both different. 40 squares on and off with 5 guys in 8 hours is is 40 man hours or 1 square per man hour. Since it was a tear off, you were probably spending half of your time tearing and half shingleing so that would be 2 squares per man hour. Vary good, mind you, but a;ll of us have done that at one time or another. tom said that they used to get 12 to 16 squares per man per day and I am assuming that was for 8 hours. The 64 squares they put on in a day with 4 guys works out to 2 squares per man per hour.

The more people you have on the roof, the less your man hour production is going to be. The longer the time frame you figure, the less your production is going to be. The same thing applies for the pitch, the roof height, the temprature, the amount of cutting, the type of shingles, (3-1's or Laminated) The kind of shingle, GAF's are packaged so that you have to flip every shingle end for end and CT's can just be dropped on the roof and just turned over. That is a lot less work if they are not stuck together. Copperman did 28 squares on a mansard by himself. Unbelievable!

What have you done or actually seen done on a roof in ideal conditions, and how does that compare to "normal" production. When I was a kid, we used to try and average 1 square per man hour worked at the end of the week. Many times we would do 2 squares per man hour or "boy" hour as it were in a day, but 1 square was the goal at the end of the week. What is the best you have averaged and what was the crew size.

OK, here we go. I started shingle'n in 86, when hand bangers, were hand bangers. yes i consider myself as old school. Todays roofers can't hand nail worth shit. Nailers are attached to their hips...that kills me. That beig said, I remember in the day when we ripped 40 sq, prep and shingled , three hand bangers, two labourers. today that's a walk in the park, with nailers. there is no substitue for hand nailing, sorry guys....it is what it is...quality over quantity

There is no doubt that you can do more with a gun, but a gun doesn't do anything for the set up or flashing etc. Hmm. Those were the days. Thats the truth. The real test is when you get to a dormer or chimney and how much that slows you down or not. As an older roofer thats were I blow the young guys out of the water. I go on auto pilot and don't have to think about anything I'm doing were the younger guys have to

The "heyday" for shingling had to be in the late 50's thru the 70's. Mostly ranch style roofs, 1 story and not cut up. Working with my dad and a small crew of two other guys, we always did one house in the morning and another in the afternoon. Nt brothers worked woith us too so there were about 3 men and 5 kids on the roof, all nailing shingles and going like mad. You would never get away with that today.

On a hip roof, we would use the AJC hatchets with a 4" guage and lay them in "Thirds" and have at it. 2 or 3 hours on a 27 square roof and then on to the next one. People don't know how much time they spend setting up the compressor and hoses and such any more. It really isn't any faster in the long run, but it takes time to learn to hand nail. Ask the roofing god or anyone that grew up hand nailing how much more we do today. Not much!

There is no doubt that you can do more with a gun, but a gun doesn't do anything for the set up or flashing etc. Hmm. Those were the days.

Like I tell my guys, you ain't fast if you ain't nailing on the....wait what is that thing called...oh the NAIL LINE!

Me and eight guys tore off 55sq 1 layer 4/12 and reinstalled in eight hours. 5-6 sheets of plywood 3-tab off and on. Naturally we used I&W, felt, drip.

Don't be too hard on us young bucks TomB. Some of us still throw em down, I'm just dependent on that compressor!