How did we get here?

Tom I wish that I could believe that licensing would make much of a difference. We have it Illinois and although it has kept some of the "riff-raff" out, it has not changed much except to add more expense. There are still loopholes and there is no enforcement. Enforcement of the laws on the books would take care of a lot of problems in this country, but it ain't gonna happen! State licensing is as meaningless as the employment laws. Nothing is going to change so you have to adapt. I try to do what is right for my customers, my employees and myself. The only way that I am able to stay in business is to sell myself. By educating the customer, explaining what it is I will do for them and why and then going out and doing it I have been able to keep this experiment afloat. Find a niche and focus on being the best, most honest and reliable contractor in that niche and you will build up a clientel who will gladly pass your name around. I call it building a fan club. The status quo is not going to change. The cheaters will continue to prosper and it is a waste of time to worry about them. You cannot change anything except yourself.

GKRFG....Thanks for putting it all together....Very clearly put, & I agree, almost to the letter.

I know many otherwise very inteligent/savy induviduals will disagree, but a basic root to your explanation/resultant is the lack of effective state contractor licensing....It's not a magic bullet, but would be a start in the right direction.

There are two dynamics to which if implemented, would catapult the roofing/construction business into a more desireable realm....State contractor licensing & the enforcement of current employment laws/regulations.

State contrator licensing, (effective); Would eliminate the riff-raff & unqualified.

Enforcement of employment laws as intended; Eliminate the "sub-game" & use of cheap, illegal alien labor.

These simple two "dynamics" would absolutely rock the construction world.

"How did we get here?"

I am a residential contractor. The way I see it roofing is one of the hardest trades out there. But it is also one of the easiest businesses to start up. Anybody with a pickup truck and a ladder can go into business and make a living. And so many do just that without learning the business end of things so that they do not understand what they should be charging to pay quality people to become installers and to keep good people in the trade. They drastically under bid on jobs and so many of them do it that the "going rate" is kept way too low for the good of the business. They do not understand the true cost of employees and the true costs of insurance and overhead. They decide to hire guys as independent contractors and pay them cash or 1099 them. A kid coming out of school might try roofing but the pay and benefits are too low and the only ones that stay in it are the low end of the labor pool. It doesn't take long to see that for all of the hard work they are making minimum wage and once they find out that as 1099ers they owe the government 1/3 of what they made all year they end up worse of than if they were flipping burgers or collecting welfare and food stamps. I know more than a few roofers working for cash and collecting from the government. So the available amount of potential workers stays low but the amount of available work is huge. So along comes the illegal alien population who have no choice but to take any type of job out there and the contractor jumps on it because it does not require him to change anything. He can continue to under charge for the work and under pay for the labor and things just keep getting worse. For things to change in this trade contractors would have to increase their rates by 50% and wages need to increase by the same amount. But that is not going to happen. The trades used to be a good living that attracted young people for the good pay, now it has been converted over to the Hispanic work force and it is hard as hell to even get a construction job unless you are born into it. The welfare state that the government has created has made it easier for people to live off of the handouts than to go out and get a job. We have created quite a mess in this country and I don't see anyone out there that can get us out of it. I expect to see a continual decline in our economy and our quality of life. The government has made rules to benefit themselves. The amount we pay for pensions just keeps growing and such a large amount of our taxes goes to paying these inflated benefits that it putting us in a hole we will not get out of. Something is going to give and when it does the money in our pockets will be worthless. Water and ammo will be the currency of the day. It's really sad and scary.

That's the way I see it.

When Mercedes plant open its doors in alabama there were 65000 applications for 1500 jobs.Wages in that plant vary between $16-$25 an hour.Roofing foremen in nashville area earn around $28 an hour.

I was watching a newscast about all the unemployeed and jobs moving to the east. To be honest, I busted out laughing. They interviewed some guy who explained that once he can get in the door, he'll be albe to move up to exec level within 9 months, or worst case a year.

:laugh: :laugh: Back in the day, company structures looked like a pyramid. Large lower levels consisting of 'lesser' employees, getting smaller as it neared the top where the top guy sits.

In this century, it's supposed to be upside down with one mailclerk/flunky/crewman/jobleader doing everything so the execs on ALL the next levels up could show they created something on the back of the mailclerk/flunky/crewman/jobleader so they could move sideways or upward until the top floor is chock full of execs sending notes downward the clerk to get toilet papaer and get into an even bigger McMansion.

So the moral is, go to school, go to college, get a job as a top exec somewhere, get a McMansion, and be CEO in another two years.

TomB Said: 1099d employee?...A bit of an oxy-moron?

TomB Said: 1099d employee?...A bit of an oxy-moron?

quote] Yeah the IRS does not have any branch offices in Indiana. And the IN DOR encourages this.

I just wonder .....the guy's wife might at least ought to see the $4,000 slipping away every April, plus the reduced winter income and maybe, just maybe she would have enough sense to get the Hubby onto something decent.

Quite a deal tho, pocketing your employees tax return. Mulitply that by 10! No wonder the guy can give away work in the $220-250 sq range

1099'd employee?...A bit of an oxy-moron?

All wages in the private sector have suffered....BTW, during the housing boom, there were plenty of illegals wiring....as I'm sure they were plumbing & HVAC'ing, as well.....Not as prevalent/dominating, as all the other trades, but they were there.

All this...Be that as it may...It is what it is...There's no wonder the labor pool is at it's current status, with all the, (some may say), scatter-brain notions out there, (pardon the expression).

Trades that don't have any illegal immigrants like eletricians, HVAc technicians etc aren't faring any better.They earn close to what roofers earn.

Good one seen-it-all

RE: How did we get here?

Here's a story: Guy does siding for Kurt's Roofing here. An employee. A 1099'd employee. He comes looking for work last winter. Kurt cut his hourly pay, so he quit.

During the course of our conversation he lets on that it is a good thing that his wife has a job as he is getting no tax refund, or unemployment in the winter. He is after all a 1099 contractor.

I saw him recently. He is back to work for Kurt. Giving Kurt his tax refund in exchange for a job

Hard to blame the SOB's for lack of self esteem

Yes; Same ole - same ole.....in that respect!

It's just gotten further complicated with added dynamics....

I skimmed-over....Did I note a hint of socialism forecasting in there somewhere?

Gerry WOW !!!!!!! That was, "excellent.." Thank You

B) :) :) B) Deep Down In Florida Where The Sun Shines Damn Near Every Day

Were things the same back in 1899 when Elbert Hubbard wrote " A message to Garcia"?

http://courses.csail.mit.edu/6.803/pdf/hubbard1899.pdf

If someone pees on your leg, it's trickling down.