EPDM or Torch Down??

Vaa I am not "claiming" it as you say. It is a family business, 6 family members work there, so wdnt u say that the succes's or failures wd be shared by all? Mike's company HRI roofing has been around since 1947. was Mike roofing in 1947? Most likely not, yet his company and it's success', and experiences measured or not, are still valid when he makes his points on things aren't they?

And wywoody, you have no idea my "insights" or "true feelings" towards the small operation, Iwas responding to those "small operations" that fit my claim, as were you and others (big box lowes type roofing co) were making about me.>>>

Mac,

You're welcome. I'm an equal opportunity offender/defender.

wywoody, I could have elaborated. The silver spoon sits a little close to me, but I don't agree with the way Mac belittles small operators. We all have our place, our desires, our goals. None are right or wrong, imho. What matters is that we are satisfied. Few of the people that chase big dreams ever find satisfaction, because they are looking in the wrong place.

I enjoyed your comments. I can relate, and I'm glad for your son. I didn't want mine to roof either. My dad didn't want me to do it. But school is not for all of us. I was one of those super students that skated through school with a 3.5 gpa without ever opening a book. Got accepted to a very difficult school to attend, The Citadel................. and the long story short is my failure to establish good study habits hurt me. I came home to roof. I often wish I had finished my degree, but on the other hand, I know that my oldest son would not exist if I had. Therefore, my first grandson would not exist either. It all works out for those with faith, in the end. I am satisfied. I am happy. And whether there is a Hicks Industrial Roofing in operation 20 years from now, or not, will have no bearing on the condition of my soul.

The fact is, that I tip my hat to any man that started with nothing and earned his way through life..... be it with 100 employees or 1. My dad says "I couldn't do what you do". I'm not sure I could do what my grandpa did. Maybe I would have. I do think we have succeeders and failers in this world, but I don't think the thickness of our wallets has anything to do with those descriptions.>>>

Mike, born on third base was not a class envy thing. It was a response to Mac dispalying insights of his true feelings of the small operations that populate the roofing world. As for generation passing, when my son graduated from college, I had two roofing businesses doing a little over three million between them. I was overwhelmed (I didn't even have a salesman or estimator) and could have easily found many things he could have done for me that could have grown my businesses. But he opted to try things on his own.

He took a job at the Commerce Dept in DC. While there, he got a masters at Johns Hopkins and then went on to get a MBA from Wharton. He has gone on to things so much bigger than anything I could have built up my businesses to be that I'm thankful that I never pressured him to join me and be an anchor on his potential.

But losing the pressure to build something for the kids freed me to return to being a craftsman. I'll never be a NRCA board member, but I know of a past NRCA president that when when he needs work done on either of his two houses, he doesn't call any of the over 100 roofers he has, he calls me. In fact, I'll be going there again next Tuesday.>>>

Mike, I scincerely appreciate all you wrote, although, it may not have been your main reason for writing it, I take it as your taking up my defense to some degree, and I am grateful.

Those of us whom are 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation anything are always saddled with yolk of the perceived "silver spoon" I am here to say, I had anything but, I had to be the first to arrive and the last to leave, "THat is your name on that truck" my father use to tell me. Trust me when I say, my path was not the easy one, but with that being said, There was the groundwork laid out for me, and for that (and many other things) I am extremely gratefull, but as You elluded to mike, It is not what you have that matters, but rather what you do with it, this world is chock full of wasted potential.

On a side note, I must take umbridge with the "degree of sarcasm and aggression" I thought I've held my tounge rather well! I have taken a fairly healthy barrage of shots fired over my bow (Jed, sometimes vaa, et al) before I returned fire! But maybe I still have work to do on that front, Like most I am a work in progress>>>

Oh, yeah, Kenda is another mfr of epdm, and the brand that makes Manville's product at the moment. Manville and Carlisle had a fall-out during the iso shortage when Manville kept their product for their customer's and left Carlisle sort of high and dry. So Carlisle jerked the rubber line from Manville in retaliation, and Manville had to find a new source. Manville's now in the process of trying to establish themselves as a player in the epdm market again.

At least that's the line I've heard. Can't speak to authenticity from personal experience or knowledge.>>>

Weeeellllp,

While I don't understand or condone Mac's degree of agression and sarcasm, I have certainly been guilty of it myself from time to time.

I do believe that those of us "born on third base" take an undeserved beating. I have yet to meet the decent man that didn't want to see his years of labor benefit his children. I have yet to meet the decent successfull, retired business man that passed on an opportunity to his children that thought the road his children faced was easier than the one he himself walked. The animals we tame may be different, but are no less ferocious, and many of our father's will say "I couldn't do what you do today". In end, a piss poor attitude and poor work ethic will destroy a business, whether it's a startup or a 5th generation. The real truth is that most men don't have what it takes to create a legacy. A lot of startup founders came from just such men. And the childen of many startup founders are just such men as well. In the end, failure or success is our own to make, and the only real stupidity in life is to look an opportunity in the face, tell it "no thanks", then chase down the bus, and tell your second chance ".... the town is that way...." while watching your golden ticket drive away. (from Dumb and Dumber for anyone that's never seen this absolute classic of human nature)

I have met any number of startup founders that deeply desired to pass their business on their children. I have met any number of startup founders that were deeply regretful that their children had no interest, or they had no chidren to pass it on to. I have met many startup founders that had such desire, but in the same breath would curse a multi-generation guy like he was scum. (somehow he didn't see the irony in that)

There isn't a single one of us that succeeds at any level in this business that is a second class citizen, and to hate any of us simply because we are a 2nd or 3rd generation of people with a strong and independent work ethic is nothing less than ignorant jealosy at it's worst. Even a true "silver spoon" can't keep it going forever, and there is always someone hungry beating at the door of your customers.

With that said, the awards that Mac speaks of, regardless of who actually earned them and a subject of which I have no knowledge, are very nice awards. Unlike most mfr's that simply award on the number of squares installed, Firestone's award system is so heavily weighted toward quality, that it is impossible to earn these awards if you have leak call backs, or if you require a re-inspect on your work.

We have earned a few of these awards, although we do not install enough quantity to accumulate the points needed for the highest level. We picked up some biggies in the mid 90's when we did more rubber, but I'm most proud of the "partner in quality" that we earned 8 straight years. You have to be in the top 25% of "least warranty claim expenses", and achieve a certain volume to qualify. Firestone even offers a rebate check on the warranty fees your company paid as those warranties age without expenses being applied to them. We dropped out of the necessary volume level a couple years ago that was required to make it past 8 years. Mac's awards are the same, but at the very highest level of the scale, and he should be proud of them, whether it was him, his dad, his granddad, or his granddad's dog that won them. They do speak loudly to anyone familiar with the Firestone award system.>>>

well...yee fricken hawwwwwwwwww!!!

I have read this entire thread over, and you know what. Despite all the chauvinism, testosterone, egotism, and immaturity that has been typed in this thread, If someone were to read between the lines, they would find the answer to almost every issue that engineers face when discussing Modified vs. rubber. It just took a lot of added sarcasm, and ball busting to get there. I would like to think that the original poster got the answer to his question, and that anyone else that was ever curious about what we in the field have to go thru, day after day, with these products, got a great education. I have to admit that some questions, that I might not offer answers as easily as some, come spewing out of my mouth when I am provoked by the opposing position. I think you can learn more by re-reading this thread than you can from a years worth of book learning, and maybe a lifetime.

Just like the analogy of the baseball third base thing...I also have one, and it has provoked a few in here and they know who they are. They don't say much anymore, but like a train wreck, they can't look away.... and here it is....... "PIMPS...please don't provoke the whores on a rainy night!!">>>

You seem to have a big mouth Jed, what are your credentials? Or do you just live in your parents basement and spend all day on the internet?>>>

A thread that was degeneratated by a degenerate. Mactroll.>>>

lol you dont have a clue, but it is ok. Per usual, a thread has degenerated into uslessness>>>

When you're born on third base with the bases loaded and they walk the batter, you cross the same plate as the grand slammer does, but some of us still know the difference between the two.>>>

yup that is about when we started to do in en mass. About 15 years ago. Not 100% sure of the exact date but it was early 90's.

I think it is a huge improvement over the splice adhesive, to much room for worker error with the black glue IMO >>>

Flaunt Jed?

How did I flaunt them, they were not initially mentioned or brought up by me, but rather you, or your way of trying to have me verify my credibility!

You asked me twice for them.

Not Inherited at all, I've been doing this for a very long time, I know what it entails to earn them, never due to one person, but a collective all following the same game plan.

And insolence, and arrogance?? are you the pot and the kettle?? You have offered nothing constructive on this thread at all, all you've done was insult. I've offered reasoning behind my thoughts regarding the threads topic. Where are yours? Like I stated before, Vaa and I may disagree, but I respect the fact that at least he is debating mostly the topic, and defending his position. >>>

No longer my Grandfathers company Builder, hasnt been for many years

And what u copied and pasted was in response to this by VAA:

"I refer to brands because rather than you and Macroof I have vast experience of what is out there in the World market, not just your little corner, epdm is a lot more than Firestone and Carlile despite what you have been brainwashed by their salesmen. I am not a saleman, far from it, but I have installed at some stage just about every product that you can put on a roof that there is, except Polyurea and SPF.

You scissormen ( what torchers down here call rubber installers) are very narrowminded, have you ever installed Carliles material? if you have then you will know that its different than Firestone.

Are all Bostonians arrogant bastards or is it just you and Mac?"

--- so, like I sd I did respond in kind when attacked.

>>>

So why the arrogance, insolense, and evidently insecure macroof when you appear here? Is it that in the company of roofers who quite possibly know a little more than you you feel threatened? Do you behave the same way when "advising"? Why the taunting trolllike behaviour you so like to use? Clearly the awards you so like to flaunt were not even earned by you but inherited. I predict you will crawl back into your hole now that another poster knows what you really are.............the same way roofguy did.>>>