Employees or subcontractors.

tico Said:

jimAKAblue Said:

tico Said:

tico Said: quick question,are your subs americans?if not,do they have the real mccoy documentation to be working,or here for that matter?

I asked it in english,now Ill ask it in spanish.I just want to know if anyone here subs to illegals or undocumented workers. ¿pregunta rápida, son sus submarinos americanos? ¿si no, tienen la documentación mccoy verdadera a trabajar, o aquí para esa materia? id really like to know.

Actually, your first question seemed to be aimed at one specific person. I was waiting for that person to respond.

Answer to your second question is a question: How would one know if my subs are legal or not?

you ask for documentation.you have that right.and you verify it.make copies.when they realize this,and you tell them your forwarding it to INS so your covered,theyll go to the next co.and see if that contractor is willing to sell the american flag for A cheap crew and big returns. and if you think,with your gut their illegal they probably are. theirs reasons an american roofing co. cant compete with stormers for jobs.and guess who knows this also?the ins. co.s. they have the labor beaten down to A point that we cant live to A wholesome standard on their payscale.whats the ins.co.s responsibility?to make the property whole,and yet we hire illegals,how will we make america meet thats same standard of being whole,when illegals are taking that liberty,as its handed to them by an american shyster.it truly equates to racketeering.if you dont think so,read the federal statudes for racketeering. we are used to 15-20 an hour per man for in house,and to sub,the leader of the sub crew may pay day wage.so his shingler with exp.should make what?someone please tell me what youd work for,top layer,flashin,tearin off,delegatin and doin the bosses bidding when hes out managing another job.and what do you expect A good helper and laborer deserves? once you break it down,tool % boss % dump fees etc you cant pay A fair scale when your bound to the market or the line the ins.co. sets. I worked for a major co. and quickly became disillusioned with it,and it was after joining this site that it became apparent that its 1. out of control, 2. that its wrong for so many reasons, 3. theirs nothing you can do,its the ins.co.s and scumbags that work illegals that cut the throat of other americans. and I WILL NOT APOLOGIZE TO ANYONE THAT FITS THE BILL.

Perhaps you are looking too hard to be a victim and missing out on a golden opportunity? Every roofer has the ability to set their own prices. They are not bound by the insurance companies rates.

What does this mean? It means that every roofer can choose a different method of marketing their services. They don't have to follow the herd. They can differentiate themselves and sell on quality....and they will be busy too.

Check in with Stephen, who posts in here occasionally. His neighborhood got hit. He managed to work two years straight, AT HIS PRICES, which were significantly higher than what they insurance company pays. According to him, he never bothered to meet with adjusters and basically told his customers up front(I'm paraphrasing) the amount you settle with with the insurance company is your business. I don't care what they pay you, I only care that you pay me my price.

The difference between Stephen and many roofing contractors is that he refused to be a victim. He had high standards and went out and sold himself.

This is America. The only one holding you or I back is ourselves. Don't be victimized by "theirs nothing you can do,its the ins.co.s and scumbags that work illegals that cut the throat of other americans." You are asserting that there's nothing you can do about it...so do something else! Sell on quality...personal committment, personal attention to detail. Your closing ratio might not be as high as the storm chasers but you will be too busy to care....AT YOUR PRICE!

twill59 Said: Answer to your second question is a question: How would one know if my subs are legal or not?

That is beyond funny. And I dont mean if they are just SOB. Even European (My MIL is German and has an aceent)

Short story: Natalie a local waitress has a hispanic husband, Emilio. Nice guy, I like him. One day I asked Natalie if she & Emilio had any friends who were here legally needing a job.

After the laughter from her died down she simply said: NO one of them that we know are here legally

So............what was the question? Can I tell if they are legal or not? :laugh: :laugh:

You and I are obviously different. I don't ask people what religion they are. I don't ask them if they are citizens. I'm 57....it's a question that I've never asked anyone. When I had employees, the government required that I had I-9's on file. I did my duty and got them filled out. Now, I don't deal with employees anymore. The government requires that I get a W-9. I do my duty and get W-9's.

I'll leave the sleuthing to you.

Also, if someone asks me about my citizenship, I wouldn't answer. I've never been asked and I've been a subcontractor since 1982 or so.

wywoody Said: If you have to supervise a sub almost to the same degree as an employee, what exactly do you gain other than shifting taxes around?

With the exception of not supplying the materials, a framing sub is the equivalent of the roofing contractor. Now if the framing sub where to sub his work to another framer, then you would be talking about the same thing as a roofing contractor subbing his work out. Every arguement can be framed to look brilliant.

It's far more than "shifting taxes around".

For instance....last month my roofing subcontractor got to the job two hours later than scheduled. He was delayed when his trailer popped off his hitch and rammed through his pick up truck fender. I was empathetic when I told him "...some days it really isn't too fun being the boss eh? I know how you feel, I've been there many times myself."

That day, I truly felt bad for him. It brought back memories of my employee calling me and telling me that he had rolled my boom truck into a ditch.....

The state of Washington has an insurance crisis going on. It stems from the state legislature having too many Mercer Island Bloodsuckers (Seattle lawyers). In an attempt to broaden the number of deep pockets, they have started making liability insurers be in effect another ten-year product warranty provider. The result is greatly reduced choices for insurance with lots of restrictions. One of those restrictions has to do with employees vs subs. I doubt you could get insurance here if you subbed out your work.

Now, I have no doubt the actuarial bean counters that impose this restriction do so because they have hard numbers showing higher liability claims for subbed work vs employee work. On the surface, you would think that the insurance company would like a situation where the contractor has insurance and the sub has insurance, thereby spreading the risk. But it doesn't seem to work that way.

jimAKAblue Said:

tico Said:

tico Said: quick question,are your subs americans?if not,do they have the real mccoy documentation to be working,or here for that matter?

I asked it in english,now Ill ask it in spanish.I just want to know if anyone here subs to illegals or undocumented workers. ¿pregunta rápida, son sus submarinos americanos? ¿si no, tienen la documentación mccoy verdadera a trabajar, o aquí para esa materia? id really like to know.

Actually, your first question seemed to be aimed at one specific person. I was waiting for that person to respond.

Answer to your second question is a question: How would one know if my subs are legal or not?

"Answer to your second question is a question: How would one know if my subs are legal or not?"

That is beyond funny. And I don't mean if they are just SOB. Even European (My MIL is German and has an aceent)

Short story: "Natalie" a local waitress has a hispanic husband, Emilio. Nice guy, I like him. One day I asked Natalie if she & Emilio had any "friends" who were here legally needing a job.

After the laughter from her died down she simply said: "NO one of them that we know are here legally"

So............what was the question? Can I tell if they are legal or not? :laugh: :laugh:

If you have to supervise a sub almost to the same degree as an employee, what exactly do you gain other than shifting taxes around?

With the exception of not supplying the materials, a framing sub is the equivalent of the roofing contractor. Now if the framing sub where to sub his work to another framer, then you would be talking about the same thing as a roofing contractor subbing his work out. Every arguement can be 'framed' to look brilliant.

wywoody Said: I was reminded last weekend why I quit subbing. There was a full page pictural article in the paper about a high-end builder that was retiring and reviewed his career. Back in the late 70s, this guy was my first repeat customer. I had done a half-dozen houses for him and he was adding another one every 2 months.

But I also had started to get some large commercial jobs and was feeling kind of stretched. My tile supplier told me about a guy named Kyle that had just come down from Canada that wanted to sub. I gave him two out-of-town jobs of mine and he did them for me. I thought this is great, I didnt even have to see the jobs and I was getting money for them. Kyle was a hard worker, not particularly fast, but would stay on a job until dark. He was also brash, opinionated and totally lacking any tact.

I decided to give Kyle the next job this builder had, which was a house for his parents. As far as I knew (what Kyle told me) all went well, I was promptly paid. But the builder never called me again.

A couple of years later at a home show, I saw the builder again and asked him why he had switched roofers. He told me, he couldnt stand Kyle. The guy had insulted his framing, insulted the design (the builder did it himself) and even insulted the land (beautiful property that had been in his family for years.) The builder was very loyal to his subs and wouldnt consider using me again. Subbing proved to be just a short-term solution, not one that builds long-term customers.

Your story offers a very good lesson or two. Your conclusion that "subs are just a short term solution" is probably misguided...but if you frame the argument just right, it will look like a brilliant observation.

Now..lets look at it from another perspective. I was a subcontractor for several decades. I framed custom homes. I poured my heart and soul into every day on the job. Every builder that took the time to know our work loved us....even though some couldn't afford us. I was highly trained, highly skilled and I demanded high quality from all of my associates (employees). We took pride in our work and delivered fine products on time. We treated all visitors well and protected the integrity of the builder's name and reputation.

Short term solution? We often worked for the same builder for several years in a row until the subdivision would build out.

Could that builder have hired me as an "employee"? Absolutely not. I was offered great positions many times and I never seriously considered any of them.

So, my conclusion is this: some of the best workers you'll ever do business with will be subs. They will make money for themselves and they will make money for you.

One possibility about your situation. Maybe you didn't properly supervise your sub to make sure he fit into the culture of your business? Or, maybe you didn't lay down enough parameters when you turned your new sub loose? Or, maybe you hired the wrong sub?

tico Said:

tico Said: quick question,are your subs americans?if not,do they have the real mccoy documentation to be working,or here for that matter?

I asked it in english,now Ill ask it in spanish.I just want to know if anyone here subs to illegals or undocumented workers. ¿pregunta rápida, son sus submarinos americanos? ¿si no, tienen la documentación mccoy verdadera a trabajar, o aquí para esa materia? id really like to know.

Actually, your first question seemed to be aimed at one specific person. I was waiting for that person to respond.

Answer to your second question is a question: How would one know if my subs are legal or not?

I was reminded last weekend why I quit subbing. There was a full page pictural article in the paper about a high-end builder that was retiring and reviewed his career. Back in the late '70's, this guy was my first repeat customer. I had done a half-dozen houses for him and he was adding another one every 2 months.

But I also had started to get some large commercial jobs and was feeling kind of stretched. My tile supplier told me about a guy named Kyle that had just come down from Canada that wanted to sub. I gave him two out-of-town jobs of mine and he did them for me. I thought "this is great, I didn't even have to see the jobs and I was getting money for them." Kyle was a hard worker, not particularly fast, but would stay on a job until dark. He was also brash, opinionated and totally lacking any tact.

I decided to give Kyle the next job this builder had, which was a house for his parents. As far as I knew (what Kyle told me) all went well, I was promptly paid. But the builder never called me again.

A couple of years later at a home show, I saw the builder again and asked him why he had switched roofers. He told me, he couldn't stand Kyle. The guy had insulted his framing, insulted the design (the builder did it himself) and even insulted the land (beautiful property that had been in his family for years.) The builder was very loyal to his subs and wouldn't consider using me again. Subbing proved to be just a short-term solution, not one that builds long-term customers.

tico Said: quick question,are your subs americans?if not,do they have the real mccoy documentation to be working,or here for that matter?

TomB.... ---My first year in business I had very little work. I subbed from another roofing company that had too much work. We worked out a "piece work" rate that made us both money. They paid me as a legitimate sub and since I was incorporated they didn't even have to 1099 me. I did most of the work myself and I made more than I would have if I was just an employee but much of that got eaten up in the overhead of being in business. ---As time went on my own advertising began to take hold and I weaned myself away from subbing from a roofing company. ---The point is that it was legitimate and provided a way for me to make a living as a new company. ---By the way in my state the laws were recently changed that prohibit me as a roofing contractor to sub anything. Thus, we have all converted to general contractors so we can sub out gutters and other work. Lanny

JimAKABleu....Sounds like you ought to be working for your "subs" as a salesman....

As a point of reference.... As a subcontractor, I charge $68.00/man hour for labor.

There is a law here in Colorado; "The Colorado Workers Compensation Act", which clearly identifies an independent contractor, however, some must think it's not clear....I only wish the state would enforce the law....It's intent is very clear; The independent contractor must be engaged in a different/separate business/trade than the prime contractor....

IOW"s; A roofing contractor may not subcontract roofing...He may sub-out sheet metal or painting, maybe deck replacement,(carpentry), etc... But not simply/obviously roofing....

quick question,are your subs americans?if not,do they have the real mccoy documentation to be working,or here for that matter?

A good, fairly compensated employee should cost about the same as a LEGAL, legit sub.

Too many, no MOST, contractors do not want to pay a sub fairly. They cry for legitimate subs, but when they get one that is legal and operates above board, they don't want to hear about the subs legit, LEGAL costs of operating. Geez, just like builders.

Anybody trying to do a good job is almost forced into retailing their services based on survival.

So the contractor is back to playing the "sub game" --- 1099ing any body that comes along. "Entrepeneurs" is what they are? I definitely got to agree w/ that!

What passes for a sub around here would scare the crap out of me to leave unsupervised, or turn loose without them absorbing some bit of re-training.

Back to babysitting again. The idea would be to only babysit the crew leader and he in turn would babysit the other "subs" on his crew.

Biggest problem again is pricing. If you're selling work for less than a LEGAL, legit sub needs to survive, how does the math work?