BLOG FOR FRIDAY - FINDING TOMORROWS CRAFTSMEN

By the way, it's easy work in harsh conditions. Heat and humidity are killers. I feel the crew should knock off by 12 or 2 at the latest. The hours after 10am are just wasteful time killers in those conditions. When the weather is nice, 8-12 hour days are fine. BUt 8 should be plenty.

I'm embarrassed to say I pay subs up to $100.a square then. I'll take them to a job and tell them how I want it done. i have them tell me what to do it MY way. I get arguements about how to do it cheaper. I'm not interested in cheaper! I want it to stand out from the so-called lowball competition. I'm willing to pay enough for a sub crew to put in a 6-8 hour day and make good money. Installing 6-12 square a day would be fine and quality is what I'm after, not speed. To make the same as the idiots working 12 hours a day, to be exact. I want people that will take the time to figure out the best method for any application. Caulk free! I want to teach them how to roof! And you know what, I'm told over and over how this or that new caulk holds like a monster and the I&W make things bullet-proof! I haven't found the right individual yet, but I keep my eyes open. To be honest, if a person isn't showing a proclivity to excel, I doubt I can teach him/her.

OS....Illegal workforce is the culprit for low wages....The demand for qualified help is more than ever, today...Far more so, than 20 years ago....

One would think wages would be high, due to the dismal labor pool....(Taking the supply vs. demand approach).

The reason that we were paying so much back then was because of the huge demand. The demand has dropped a bunch now a days and there are the same number of people or more trying to do it. This the drop in wages. It is much better to get one or two good roofers and do less and better work than to get 10 crews that just throw it down.

Most of us can't resist the temptation to add just one more crew, and eventually it comes back to bite us. Been there and done all that. I prefer to do it myself with someone hauling the weight so I can just nail the shingles. I prefer tile or slate even more. We are VERY good at it and get premium prices. Boy EGG do we have a lot in common!

Thanks egg...(that's a big "duhhhh?", for me)

Very valid points...However, I never had the QC problems that so many refer to w/pc wk....Actually; Quite the contrary. Our pc wkrs generally knew the concept of quality installs are primary to effeciency...(i.e., no call-backs)

"proverbial" (as in: proverb)

Piecework is a tough nut. I had guys stealing each other's bundle straps in the wood days. Not cleaning up properly. Sloppy nailing that leads to splitting, cupping, curling, flapping in the breeze down the road ten years. Beating step shingles around a corner when they couldn't find a half-saddle. Comp, tile, wood, arguing about who jumped the cream. Who's there for the trim, how much for trim. Fine for a speedster on his own or two guys who get along with each other. Lousy for crews with mixed ability and disparate attitudes. This was all before any talk of dragging ropes all day. If all I had to do was shingle I could make that two square an hour with ease, even at 64, even hand-nailing, and get up and leave a job that sparkled with loving kindness, but not tugging a rope and not with ignorant juveniles in tow. The state of the art has risen but the so-called industry standard is pitiful. Most people should be forbidden to use a nail gun. Organic, English-measure three-tabs were easier than any laminates. Thin, floppy, stickinthebundle glass metric 3-tabs are slower, I'll grant that.

Twill...I missed it 1st time through.

You've hit the perverbial(sp?), nail, directly on the head, as fatr as I'm concernered. That is avsolutely the key....

Effeciency/increaesed skills = MO $!...That's how most of us did it, and continue.

Your correct, in that 25 yrs ago was the "Hay-days"....I think it had more to do with us, (dinosuars), that the $/rate of pay.

OS; 25 yrs ago, I was paying $8-10sq, for what we're paying $25 for today....It's good money, even by today's standards...80 sqs/week = $2,000/week; That's $104k/yr.

Problem is; They do 20 - 40 sqs/week today, which equates to the same NET, as 25 yrs ago....Money's there...industrious people is what we're lacking.

Rocky, that is averaging 80 squares a week. That is tough to do. I guess it depends on what type of house you are talking about. When I ws paying $21. a square 26 years ago, we were on a 12/12 pitch, but it was stripped off and felted and we had a scaffold platform all the way around the building at eave height. The shingles were on the scaffold and it was ready to go. I could have easlily installed 80 squares a week if I had been doing the roofing. In todays market, that would be the equivalent of about $4000.00 a week. You are paying good wages for today and I am not criticizing, but the wages have dropped drastically over the last years.

I remember in the early 60's shinglers were getting $2.00 a square and doing quite well. The heyday for making money shingling was 25 years ago. It is crap now.

Rocky...Like a snap-shot from the past....Wish i could find shinglers that put on simply 8 sqs/day! I pay minn. $25/sq...and that's shingling only, (already dried-in)....I remember 20+ yrs ago, it was expected to get 12 - 20 sqs/day per man,,,(these are all 4 or 5/12 of course)

Twill,,,As alway....I hear ya...Your a preach'n to the choir, here.

Lot's different wherever I've been Rocky. But you are correct, the guns are better and the lams are faster than when I did piece work w/ 3 tabs.

But money is still what it is all about. Typically we are going to get "poor boys" knocking at our doors to do production work....willing to work hard to make good money. That's why I went into this: Opportunity

Some way we need to get them past the Fast Money concept and realize that increasing skills = increasing income.

OS and twill, you guys are getting away from the post just a little bit. But since wages are included; I pay 16 a sq for installed shingles. I pay extra for air conditioners, coolers, solar panels, skylites , etc: Most guys brag they can do 4 sq an hour when I hire them. Ends up they do 1-1/2 to 2 sq an hour. Let's use 2 sq an hour, times $16 ea= 32.00 times 40 hours in a week. Thats $1280.00 a week in wages only. On top of that I give health, dental and eye ins., 1 week paid vaca after one year and up to 2 weeks after 2 years. I also supply them with a truck, gasoline and oil, maintanence on the truck and a ladder. I pay his taxes and his unemployment and workers comp. Yea, there are some weeks they only make 500-600 but sometimes they push 1500 to 2000 a week. Those are my 4 shingle crews. My tearoff crews are comparable from top down, as well as my tile crews and foamers. How can anybody complain about those wages. With the new tools nowadays and the ease of installation, they make a damn good living, for roofers, or at least I thought.

Had a Korean Shoe Salesman contact me thru my supplier about a metal roof install. He already sold it and needed someone to install it.

He did not know about R&R the siding. Or what to do about venting (we need to vent it?) Blah blah blah.

I then met him thru my Rep at one of the suppliers affairs. He let me know that "That job was let out" ......rather tersely. (I had not even mentioned it). Pretty obvious who was in charge......

So yea it is a race to the bottom and the Shoe Salesmen are winning.

Could we expect anyone that can see and slightly think to participate in this nonsense?

The answer might be..........YES! What I saw when I started was opportunity. It might still be there. But if the owners have gotten dumber, then the Public has gotten Dumb & Dumber.

Tail still wags the dog in the Roofing business. That has not changed in 22 yrs for me.

Try tearing off AND putting back on for about $__________ .... whatever the Shoe Salesman decides he is going to pay on it.

No bennies, no work comp if you get hurt and blah blah blah.

We used to get about $60 in MA from '86 to 1990, as subs. Off 'n on, 1 layer............ OVER 25 yrs ago! Made a living, worked hard. That was it. Did NOT get rich.

I moved back to Indiana in 1990 and told by a "We Do It All" guy I needed $50 sq...... He said, "You won't be in business long!"

It's a race to the bottom. Who wants to participate?